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TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#64126: Sep 16th 2017 at 5:42:51 PM

That has nothing to do with the trope. Whether you need to be born powerful or can get their through hard work is an entirely separate trope (mostly, Hard Work Hardly Works).

I don't think the two tropes are entirely unrelated. A character can often be Unskilled, but Strong simply by virtue of their genetics. Look at Freeza; he never trained at all prior to Resurrection F, but he still was able to decimate all our heroes by virtue of being born that much stronger than everybody else. But I'll admit that I probably could've expressed myself better.

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#64127: Sep 16th 2017 at 5:43:03 PM

I see nothing wrong with the use of "fetishism" here. It really doesn't matter and we aren't talking about anything except hypothetical concepts.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#64128: Sep 16th 2017 at 5:45:18 PM

If you're taking about concepts, talk about those concepts. Insinuating that the people who disagree only do so because they've got an unnatural obsession with the ideas you disagree with is only asking people to pick apart your ad hominem.

edited 16th Sep '17 5:46:36 PM by KnownUnknown

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#64129: Sep 16th 2017 at 5:46:16 PM

[up]x2 No, I'd say they're completely separate. You can still be unskilled if you just train for strength, like being a pure weight trainer or something.

[up]x4 Okay I think you need to calm down. I don't see what was insulting about pointing out the incorrect trope usage.

[up] Only if you're being completely literal minded about it. The only one making direct accusations about people is you, right now, by ascribing a completely sinister motive to what other people are saying. Swap "fetishism" for "fixation".

edited 16th Sep '17 5:47:49 PM by Saiga

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#64130: Sep 16th 2017 at 5:46:47 PM

And I don't think it's the same anyway. Saiga hasn't said that all fights should just come down to pure strength, or that underdogs or Weak, but Skilled can't be pulled off well. Just that how Super does it an what a lot of fans want done, wouldn't be done well. YMMV on that of course, but that's how I see it.

Pushover, by comparison has more or less said they don't really care how these things are done as long as the characters they like are doing them. Which, again, YMMV, there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but they often seem unable to get that not everyone likes the same characters or things as they do.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#64131: Sep 16th 2017 at 5:47:25 PM

Wow sick of this. Lets talk about something new.

In fact, I'd say we need to beat up whoever keeps bringing this up, but then I'd have to kick my own ass, and that'd just be awkward.

So...lets talk about the new episode.

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#64132: Sep 16th 2017 at 5:47:25 PM

Good idea.

edited 16th Sep '17 5:48:06 PM by KnownUnknown

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#64134: Sep 16th 2017 at 5:48:28 PM

It's not that underdogs are overused, it's that having the characters you sympathize with be underdogs is the only way to write a compelling story. Even in One Punch Man, the conflict in which Saitama is the underdog isn't "will he be able to defeat this opponents", it's "will he improve his quality of life with having friends and getting a job and break through his depression".

Trust me, I'm taking writing classes in college. No-one wants to watch a story about someone who never experiences any obsticles in whatever the major conflict of the story is. In a story like Dragon Ball, which is mostly battle-oriented, the characters NEED to be at a disadvantage in physical power in order for the story to be compelling.

Even Dragon Ball Z has the characters CONSTANTLY be the underdogs. From Goku and Piccolo being weaker than Raditz, the Humans and Piccolo being weaker than Nappa, to Goku being weaker than Vegeta, to everyone being weaker than Freeza, to everyone being weaker than the Androids and then Cell, to everyone being weaker than Buu. The only difference between then and now is that before, Toriyama almost exclusively used transformations to justify the characters being able to fight against their stronger opponent and now, he's mixing techniques in with transformations.

Gehayadren Bad Movie Binge Collector from A Garbage Fire Since: Jun, 2016 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#64135: Sep 16th 2017 at 5:49:29 PM

Roshi, you're a bloody idiot!

Ha ha ha. What a story, Mark.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#64136: Sep 16th 2017 at 5:51:09 PM

The only one making direct accusations about people is you, right now, by ascribing a completely sinister motive to what other people are saying.

Given that I was the third person on the last page to point out that your language was bothering them, you know that's not true.

There's nothing more sinister going on here that people getting too carried away in the condescension that, to be honest, naturally happens in debates like this. As a person who engages in debates all the time, I understand that it happens all the time and it's easy to dip into. And I also understand the need to dial it back.

edited 16th Sep '17 5:54:21 PM by KnownUnknown

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#64137: Sep 16th 2017 at 5:53:58 PM

Calling it ad hominem is plain reaching, and the point of disagreement between the 3 of us. Saiga and I were having a light convo, then someone overreacted to a word we used, and now here we are.

edited 16th Sep '17 5:55:22 PM by VeryMelon

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#64138: Sep 16th 2017 at 5:54:35 PM

I'm not going to take your word for it just because you're taking writing classes. I've already done that, and it is not the be-all end-all of writing.

I think you're confusing being an underdog for having conflict. Especially evident in your example for Saitama - he is not an underdog, but he has internal conflict. If you count Saitama as an underdog for having internal conflict, the phrase becomes meaningless.

As for the characters needing a disadvantage in power for things to be interesting - no, they don't, that's incredibly silly. We have actually seen plenty of examples where this is not the case without it removing conflict from the story. Villains can have an edge in other ways, if they even need one. Goku has total superiority over Nappa, but Nappa still poses a threat by going after Gohan and Kuririn. Vegeta has superiority over Cell, but his own ego is exploited to create conflict.

And as you've pointed out, transformations (and power ups) can cause underdogs to win by shifting the power balance. Suddenly, the hero isn't the underdog in that situation. But that doesn't mean the rest of the fight can't be compelling.

[up][up] No, it is. You were the only one to add the direct accusation that my motive was to call people "delusional".

edited 16th Sep '17 5:55:35 PM by Saiga

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#64139: Sep 16th 2017 at 5:54:59 PM

Are they gonna take a break from fighting for 2 minutes...or does the tournament have to be over for that to happen?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#64140: Sep 16th 2017 at 5:55:16 PM

By calling people who disagree with you fetishists, you're conflating their opinions with their character or temperament, so it's ad hominem, yeah.

[up][up] It's admittedly a synonym, but it fits. Calling someone a fetishist is implying that they're only taking an opinion because they're fixated on the idea, rather than because they legitimately have claim to its merit.

edited 16th Sep '17 5:57:01 PM by KnownUnknown

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#64141: Sep 16th 2017 at 5:57:00 PM

Or it's just a funny word. Would you have gotten on our cases if we used "fixation" or "preference" instead?

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#64142: Sep 16th 2017 at 5:57:58 PM

Different words have different connotations, so probably not (well, someone might have criticized the use of the term "fixation", but on validity grounds rather than additional excessiveness grounds). You didn't use fixation or preference, I notice, so I wonder where the use of the word "fetishist" came from.

edited 16th Sep '17 5:59:41 PM by KnownUnknown

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#64143: Sep 16th 2017 at 5:59:04 PM

Because it was funnier. Sometimes, that all it really means in light, silly discussions.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#64144: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:00:07 PM

And since this is a light, silly discussion, then I suppose it should be no problem to drop the use of the word when multiple people say it's going too far?

edited 16th Sep '17 6:03:39 PM by KnownUnknown

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#64145: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:01:31 PM

We stopped using it a while ago actually. Hell, we each used it only once.

edited 16th Sep '17 6:04:50 PM by VeryMelon

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#64146: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:02:39 PM

We have dropped the word, and I also said that I would have meant the same thing if I used fixation earlier.

I just object to the extremely harsh stance you have taken against it, and the things you are insinuation about us directly for using it.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#64147: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:03:20 PM

I feel like this conversation might go places none of us want if it keeps going.

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#64148: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:03:42 PM

Then stay out of it or actually succeed in changing the subject.

edited 16th Sep '17 6:04:06 PM by VeryMelon

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#64149: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:04:14 PM

[up]

Fair enough. I'll come back once I watch the latest ep.

That's always fun.

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#64150: Sep 16th 2017 at 6:06:22 PM

[up][up][up][up] To be clear, I only pointed it out as part of a larger response to a claim that some people are not considering others' opinions and others haven't, as a sign that the conversation as a whole had gotten to that point in general. The intent was to poke at the fact that everyone's arguments here are to such a point that accusing a single person of being opinionated wasn't fair.

Then when a reply attempting to refute that point specifically (iirc, starting with a claim that it wasn't a sign of being opinionated because other people use "wank" the same way), I pursued it. In hindsight I probably shouldn't have, since this whole thing has been getting increasingly off topic ever since.

In fact, I actually think focusing on the word itself is misleading - it's not a curse or anything, nor was it the reason for the state of the thread, and it's not like it or the sentiment behind it shouldn't be used in conversation.

edited 16th Sep '17 6:19:47 PM by KnownUnknown


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