I was looking at that before, in order:
- Mutaito: It might be an example of this, or just plain inconsistency.
- Popo: Goku praises his 'strength', assuming Popo is weaker is a fan explanation for a possible inconsistency in Saiyan arc battle powers.
- Goku: This does kind of fit, but it's a very specific comparison.
- Humans: Baseless. Saying they 'might' keep up in skill isn't good enough, and doesn't fit the trope anyway. The anime filler has nothing to do with this trope, it's just shoehorning CMOA in.
- The explanation about power gaps is accurate, but I'm not sure it belongs. It'd probably be better if that was the main 'entry' explaining how it usually goes in DB.
- The ki attacks are inaccurate, and a silly comparison since it's just between humans and Saiyans (of which only a handful get any development). While the humans have multiple attacks with special properties, this isn't treated as a hallmark of great skill and other 'brute' fighters also have special attacks. Being able to copy techniques instantly is treated as a hallmark of skill, which both Goku and Vegeta display.
- Piccolo: Straight up lie. Piccolo initially had a higher battle power and was winning, he started losing once Freeza raised his battle power higher (before transforming).
- Vegeta: has a terrible showing until he gets his rage power-up that made him stronger than Goku.
- Kuririn: Poor example. This is Kuririn in comparison to a five-year-old, and all Gohan mentions is the number of moves Kuririn has.
- 23rd Budokai: This is more like Overshadowed by Awesome, I'd say. They weren't more skilled than their opponents, especially not Yamcha.
- Satan: Not an example. The part about his skill against Cell is purely made up, the part against the gunman is clearly just his strength as he overpowers them.
- Jaco: Eh, I don't think it fits. In Resurrection F he mostly overpowers his enemies, the examples of his 'skill' here are separate from his fighting skill and aren't used to offset his weakness in battle, so it doesn't fit the spirit of the trope.
- Roshi: An Invoked Trope, so it fits.
Most of this seems right. The fact is, Toriyama DOES NOT do Weak, but Skilled. Before your skills can be a factor, you need the power to back it up. Then maybe you can out-skill the other dude.
It's a stated fact in this series that the more powerful dude will win 90% of the time. It's just that the gap in power grew bigger and bigger until many were out of their league completely.
One Strip! One Strip!For the most part, I get what y'all are saying; the claims that Weak, but Skilled can exist in a universe where strength matters way, way more than skill is really just wishful thinking.
But I get why people want that to be true. It's uplifting to think that, even if you weren't born powerful, you can still keep up with the heavy hitters by working really hard and honing your craft.
Otherwise, we're just left with a universe where you're pretty much doomed to fail if you were born the wrong species. I definitely understand why that would rub some people the wrong way.
That, and don't you like seeing fighters use unusual techniques and cunning tactics to get ahead? Isn't that more interesting than two Flying Bricks swinging their superpower wangs around and whoever has the bigger one wins?
edited 16th Sep '17 5:12:13 PM by TyeDyeWildebeest
No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!The thing about that is, if working really hard and becoming really skilled, normally has the implication of also getting stronger.
I don't understand the dichotomy people try and force here, or the implication that a character having both skill and strength, is somehow less impressive or uplifting than the alternative. It doesn't make any sense.
edited 16th Sep '17 5:24:53 PM by LSBK
That has nothing to do with the trope. Whether you need to be born powerful or can get their through hard work is an entirely separate trope (mostly, Hard Work Hardly Works).
As for preference, that's an extremely reductive example. Fights of brute force can be just as entertaining with the right narrative. Fights of skill, tactics or cunning can be really shit if they're written poorly or weakly justified (see: most of Dragon Ball Super's attempts at strategy).
And yeah, as LSBK said there's also a false dichotomy at play here. Characters having great strength and skill is possible, and also just makes more sense than being like "I used my great skill to punch this much stronger guy through a mountain".
edited 16th Sep '17 5:19:30 PM by Saiga
They are incorporating elements of Weak, but Skilled more often recently, which is a big step forward for Dragon Ball's writing, having been stuck in the past of judging fights solely based on Power Level for so long before now. Progress is slow, but it is happening.
edited 16th Sep '17 5:19:24 PM by PushoverMediaCritic
It's not progress. Weak, but Skilled is not inherently better writing, and they used lazy writing to enable that direction in the first place.
Fights weren't previously resolved purely on strength previously, either. It's just that strength was a necessary part of battle, which makes perfect sense when you consider the magnitudes of difference that can exist in strength once you introduce superhuman powers.
All the best fights in Dragon Ball involve characters using fun techniques to gain the upper hand over an opponent who otherwise has them evenly matched. The logical extension of that is to have characters use fun techniques to gain the upper hand over characters who otherwise have them outmatched, which has been working really well recently.
Audiences want to root for the underdog, and making a character weaker but also having a specific technique or skill that would allow them to believably win the fight is a good way of setting them up as the underdog who you want to root for. This is a standard writing technique for any work of fiction.
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That is ridiculously simplistic. And not everything needs to follow the same basic underlining formula to be good, or it just becomes a cliche.
Underdogs have been overused. They're still fine if used well, but that is true of any concept.
Even if underdogs or "fun" techniques were better, that doesn't mean every method of getting to that stage is good or worthwhile. You can fuck up anything by having poor execution.
No no, you're only not allowed to say subjective things when you're criticizing something.
edited 16th Sep '17 5:34:07 PM by Saiga
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Without getting much into it, I'd point out that direction something like that to one viewpoint in a conversation with such noticeably rigid opinion lines as this one is somewhat hypocritical.
I mean, people are running around accusing people who don't receive the series the same way that they do as being fetishistic. If anything, that sentiment is best directed at everyone.
edited 16th Sep '17 5:37:13 PM by KnownUnknown
People do criticize on the use of "fanwank" to belittle people who have different opinions than them all the time, for good reason. It's blatantly trying to bolster one's own position by suggesting people who disagree are delusional.
Besides, it's not like people on the other side are going around accusing you of having a "might makes right" fetish.
edited 16th Sep '17 5:42:12 PM by KnownUnknown

I want to see translations of those Fighterz pages, because there are some short blurbs that talk about those three images of 21 with 16, and I'm curious if they shed any light on the matter.
Also, apparently that 'terrible thing' forshadowed to happen during the Tournament of Power in Dragon Ball Super is going to happen in the Special according to a page in the same issue as the Fighterz leaks.
edited 16th Sep '17 4:17:34 PM by PushoverMediaCritic