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zsmg Since: Jul, 2011
#64076: Sep 16th 2017 at 11:17:37 AM

It was a bit surprising to read about an original character but then after thinking about it that was pretty much the only way to add another female characters to the roster...

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#64077: Sep 16th 2017 at 11:23:56 AM

Mentor Zamasu, huh? That's odd.

I thought the unused mentor quotes in the game were for Fusion Zamasu, not vanilla Zamasu.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#64078: Sep 16th 2017 at 11:24:10 AM

[up][up]Still waiting for the chance to play as Launch, who can damage Freeza by shooting at him.

edited 16th Sep '17 11:24:34 AM by MightyMatilda

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#64079: Sep 16th 2017 at 11:31:39 AM

Its pretty funny how they have to make another female character instead of adding someone from the canon cause theres no one else.

Even with 18 its still a sausage fest which makes sense cause DB is old-school Shonen so of course its a sausage fest.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#64080: Sep 16th 2017 at 11:33:55 AM

Yeah. Outside of Zangya, Fasha and West Supreme Kai (None of whom were created by Toriyama), there are few serious female fighters. Chi Chi wasn't out of her league from the get go, and Ranfan was a joke.

One Strip! One Strip!
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#64081: Sep 16th 2017 at 11:42:42 AM

Hopefully we'll get Kale, Caulifla, and Ribrianne at some point. Maybe dlc.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#64082: Sep 16th 2017 at 11:44:27 AM

That's true.

It's good we have that bunch actually. It's ridiculous how long DBZ went before we got one female character on the level of the males (sure, 18 was surpassed before the arc even ended, but that's something that happens to every character in this series)

One Strip! One Strip!
BigBlackBangBro Time Stranger Since: Sep, 2016
Time Stranger
#64083: Sep 16th 2017 at 12:09:43 PM

Considering how long game development can take your best bet for To P girls is dlc.

35 year old white man.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#64084: Sep 16th 2017 at 12:26:03 PM

[up][up]Not really tho.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#64085: Sep 16th 2017 at 3:21:49 PM

I like 21's design, seems like she might be the main antagonist, even if not physically since it emphasises her intelligence. Kind of like how Gero is the main antagonist of the Cell Saga, despite dying like 1/4 of the way into it.

Chiaotzu as a Tenshinhan assist is for the best and opens up a lot of neat combo ideas, like having Chiaotzu cover Ten from above with Dodonpas while he throws hands or having Chiaotzu freeze the opponent in place with telekinesis while Tenshinhan attacks.

Hooray for playable Yamcha! Let's hope they don't lean into his meme status and actually do the character justice.

Seriously though, why did it take this long for Xenoverse to add Dabura into the game when Towa is his goddamn sister?!

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#64086: Sep 16th 2017 at 3:26:40 PM

So, on the Broken Aesop page there's the often totted out "Toriyama created numerical power levels to show how stupid only brute forcing things were" or whatever. I removed the example, but is it one of those things that fans took out of context, or did they just completely make up him saying it?

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#64087: Sep 16th 2017 at 3:27:16 PM

Cause Towa don't give a fuck about him

[up] Yeah, it's made up.

edited 16th Sep '17 3:27:47 PM by Saiga

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#64088: Sep 16th 2017 at 3:38:08 PM

Totally made up. In fact I've never seen that interpretation of power levels before.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#64089: Sep 16th 2017 at 3:39:33 PM

It's a common fan complaint, that somewhere along the line got canonized for a lot of people with a "Toriyama said.." interview or something.

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#64090: Sep 16th 2017 at 3:40:11 PM

Rule 34 is going to have a field day with Android 21

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#64091: Sep 16th 2017 at 3:40:53 PM

Nah, I've never heard of this "brute force doesn't work" thing. It's always been about people saying power levels were plain useless.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#64092: Sep 16th 2017 at 3:41:19 PM

Well it already has a field day with 18 so why should 21 be different? tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#64093: Sep 16th 2017 at 3:44:18 PM

Those are basically sound like the same thing to me.

A lot of people desperately wanting to believe any gap in strength can be overcome with strategy or tactics or whatever, and get mad when the series says "No, that's not actually true". And somewhere along the line people invented that Toriyama actually said the same thing, and got even madder when they thought he shared their viewpoint but just illustrated it poorly.

I think it's also why people want to shove BadAssNormals into everything.

edited 16th Sep '17 3:50:05 PM by LSBK

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#64094: Sep 16th 2017 at 3:46:27 PM

Less Bad Ass Normal and more Weak, but Skilled fetishism, but yes, you're on the mark.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#64095: Sep 16th 2017 at 3:47:15 PM

That's what I get for reading only the abridged text of your post and not double checking the deleted example.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#64096: Sep 16th 2017 at 3:48:36 PM

[up][up]For that part I was going more generally than Dragon Ball, like with Super Hero comics and stories.

But I think the cravings for both are driven by the same thing. And that's not even saying they can't be done well, just that everything doesn't suddenly become better without super powers.

edited 16th Sep '17 3:50:34 PM by LSBK

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#64097: Sep 16th 2017 at 3:54:14 PM

I believe it was stead that he came up with the numbers (and the Z Warriors ability to lower and raise their battle powers) in order to hide who would win the fight. In other words, the dude with the higher power level was always going to win, and altering or hiding your power just fudged that depending on which side you were on.

Weak, but Skilled is not a thing in DBZ. If you're weak then you're skills are useless, because the other guy is likely just as skilled, if not more so, but also stronger.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#64098: Sep 16th 2017 at 3:59:31 PM

I've always been confused about that weak but skilled.

Like define weak, is it like guy who is only marginally weaker than Goku or guy who would break his hand if he punched Goku?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#64099: Sep 16th 2017 at 4:03:34 PM

[up][up][up] Ah, right. Weak, but Skilled tends to go with Badass Normal in the more general examples as well, though. Usually that's the justification for being a Badass Normal, at least where they're meant to look good against people with powers.

[up] I mean, it depends on the example. Sometimes it's slightly weaker, but fiction likes to exaggerate things to ridiculous degrees so you get people who are pathetically weak doing completely implausible things and calling it skill.

edited 16th Sep '17 4:04:36 PM by Saiga

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#64100: Sep 16th 2017 at 4:04:37 PM

Let's take a look at the Dragon Ball examples for Weak, but Skilled:

  • Dragon Ball:
    • In the original Dragon Ball, there's a bit where Goku goes back in time and meets Master Roshi's old teacher, Mutaitou. By this point Goku is far stronger than the Old Master, including having killed the monster that wiped out both the master and all of his dojo except Roshi and his Evil Counterpart rival, Tsuru. However, when they spar Goku's moves are so reckless and sloppy that Mutaitou manages to counter all his attacks with ease.
    • This was also how his first meeting with Mr. Popo went.
    • Compared to the Saiyans at the beginning of Z Goku was this. Since he was raised on Earth which had weak fighters compared to the rest of the universe, Goku lacked any real strength when Raditz came looking for him. However, Goku was able to sense energy, hide his power, and had great control of his ki, something that surprised Raditz when Goku bended his Kamehameha and powered up at various points.
    • This trope is the bane of the human protagonists' existence. It's entirely possible that Krillin, Yamcha, and Chaozu might be able to keep pace with the Saiyans in terms of actual fighting skill, but the uber-powerful foes the protagonists face mean that the humans typically end up as benchwarmers, or are simply beat up as per The Worf Effect. Even if it's only anime filler, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Chaozu do get their own personal Crowning Moment Of Awesome in Dragon Ball Z when they faced the Ginyu Force while being trained by King Kai. King Kai's training methods, which were so good they allowed Goku to utterly thrash Nappa when he returned to Earth, proved just as effective for the humans in that it allowed them to keep pace with Freeza's elite troops, and come out on top.
      • The reason this rarely works in Dragon Ball is because generally powerful characters are simply incapable of being harmed by anything that isn't at least somewhat close to their power level. They will just laugh it off. Even if a weaker opponent has the skill to get around their defense and hit them 100 times before they can react it doesn't matter, because none of the those 100 blows will hurt them. Krillin struggled to hurt Vegeta when Vegeta was deliberately standing there wide open so Krillin could injure him so he'd require healing because Vegeta was that much stronger.
      • When it comes to ki attacks, it's the humans among the protagonists that have the creative attacks with special properties (geometry-breaking beams that can be supercharged with life energy, remote controlled projectiles that can turn on a dime, ki buzzsaws that seem to be able to metaphorically punch well above their weight class), while the Saiyans mostly just have increasingly large orbs and lasers to throw around. It's not always enough to even the power gap, but sometimes the results can be surprising...
    • Piccolo gets this during the fight on Namek with Frieza. Though his power level was slightly lower than Frieza's even after his fusion with Nail, Piccolo's fighting skills nonetheless allow him to go toe-to-toe with Frieza's second form.
    • Vegeta, of all people, gets this treatment in Battle of Gods. Despite being far weaker than SSJ3 Goku, Gohan, and Gotenks, he has the best showing against Beerus because of his good fighting sense. Beerus even laments that he's "highly skilled, but lacks the power to match it."
    • Gohan (who could be the poster child for Unskilled, but Strong) lampshades this when he trains with Krillin. When Krillin congratulates him on how strong he is, Gohan says Krillin kept surprising him just because of how many different techniques he knew.
    • The 23rd Tournament arc also makes a really big point of this trope: Krillin and Yamcha are absolutely Curbstomped, but the crowd still cheers wildly for them because their skills were still top-notch.
    • Unbelievably, Mr. Satan: in his fight with Cell he attacks with great skill and in such a way that he would have destroyed a normal opponent (indeed, the first attack had a good chance to kill a normal human), but as his opponent was the far stronger Cell he didn't even scratch him. He later proves it again when going against two gunmen-and as the gunmen were normal humans he annihilates them.
    • Jaco has shown his skills again and again, proving that his bragging of being a super elite for being a member of the Galactic Patrol is well-founded, with feats that include instantly calculating how much strength he needed to kick a falling giant rocket away from East City without blowing it up and noticing things that escaped Beerus and Champa. In his solo series he also flat-out admits any adult Saiyan would destroy him (he's gotten better by Dragon Ball Z Resurrection F, enough to fight a small army of Frieza's soldiers and come out on top, but he's still far from the big guys).
    • In the Universe Survival Arc in Dragon Ball Super, Roshi definitely qualifies. While nowhere near the level of the rest of the team in terms of strength, his hundreds of years of experience and techniques are the reason why Goku and Gohan choose him.

Any of these fit to you guys, Rob?


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