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Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#63976: Sep 12th 2017 at 2:47:12 AM

They haven't even had an evil hug yet, though.

RedM Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
#63977: Sep 12th 2017 at 10:22:08 AM

[up][up][up]Yeah, it's weird that Tien and Roshi are on this team at all when Goten and Trunks are sitting around at home waiting for something to do. Sure, maybe they don't want to get kids involved in such a dangerous situation, but hey, that didn't seem to matter during the Buu saga.

The very best, like no one ever was. Check out my Spider-Man fanfic here! [1]
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#63978: Sep 12th 2017 at 10:33:24 AM

I love Buu so much. I want a Fun Size version of him as a pet.

edited 12th Sep '17 10:33:31 AM by HamburgerTime

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#63979: Sep 12th 2017 at 10:36:24 AM

Against Buu it was less they didn't care and more they thought for awhile that Goten and Trunks were the only option. Here that's technically not true, it's just that they'd be far better options than Tenshinhan and Roshi.

And going "they're not as popular" isn't a good in-story reason, and Saiga's already go over how the experience excuse doesn't really hold up with everything else in the story.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#63980: Sep 12th 2017 at 10:44:32 AM

Right. Then it's pretty clear that someone decided to go with Roshi and Tien (and Krillin I guess) no matter how little sense it made. The only question is who: Toriyama, Toei, or Toyotarou.

Is Roshi even that popular? is Tien? I know we talk him up here (or talk down to him to spite his fans) but how well thought of is he in Japan?

One Strip! One Strip!
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#63981: Sep 12th 2017 at 10:47:58 AM

I'm blaming Toriyama. My guess is that he saw how well-received their scenes in Resurrection F were and decided to try and replicate it.

This song needs more love.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#63982: Sep 12th 2017 at 10:58:09 AM

But why were they in Resurrection F in the first place? Who's idea was that?

And Toriyama is more likely to just use who he wants and how he wants rather than care about any form of popularity (unless he himself likes the character).

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#63983: Sep 12th 2017 at 2:37:37 PM

I've been suspecting ever since Yo! Son Goku And His Friends Return that Toriyama's been interested in giving prominence to the lesser used characters, but ever since he's been trying to do so in a way that doesn't actively involve changing the way the series is set up as a whole - including not giving those characters plots that justifies their being there. He's trying to use the characters without really using them, just throwing them in.

He's trying to have his cake and eat it too. So is Toei. I haven't read the manga, so I don't know if it's the same way there, but to be honest I've felt that phrase sums up most of Super's problems - the plot problems, the scaling problems, everything. Though imo as far as those problems go, this particular is probably one of the more minor ones: it's really more a symptom of the greater power scaling problems as a whole.

@The Buu clip.

I always wondered whether the people Buu used to make that house were dead, or whether they stayed in a state of horrible trapped unlife until Kid Buu finally blew up the planet.

edited 12th Sep '17 2:53:23 PM by KnownUnknown

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#63984: Sep 12th 2017 at 2:53:18 PM

Probably "alive in the sense that their souls are still bound to the material and can't move on to the afterlife, but not conscious or aware". We see that Buu can transmute people back into, uh, people, as seen with the Vegito candy, which would be casual resurrection of the dead if transmutation killed them initially, which doesn't really work in a setting with such a bureaucratic afterlife where you need magic wish orbs to retrieve someone from death.

Of course, then you get into blurred-line magic stuff. What constitutes "killing" an inanimate object? How come a piece of a house would be considered more alive than the atomic dust it becomes when Buu blows the planet up? If Buu can turn Vegito back into a person, does that mean Vegito's exact appearance is "saved" somewhere in the metadata of the coffee candy, to be restored at will?

edited 12th Sep '17 2:56:58 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#63985: Sep 12th 2017 at 2:54:12 PM

If that's the case, it would be hard. He himself set up the rules that made it impossible for those characters to be useful:

  • Always being behind Goku;

  • The next enemy always being even more powerful than the last, which means only Goku and maybe Vegeta stand a chance against them;

  • Having lower ki than your enemy means you may as well not bother, as you can't even harm them;

  • Rendering Kaiouken (the best chance for the others to catch up) useless via high levels doing so much damage to your body that it's not worth it, and the fact that the highest level we've seen (X20) wouldn't so much as dent anyone past Frieza;

  • Not fully using the principles behind the Spirit bomb as a way for them to power themselves up (like absorbing the energy you draw from outside sources to add to your own ki, although this one only happens in the movies, but being that we've seen characters lend energy to each other before, I think it could work);

And other stuff. But we don't have any proof that this is Toriyama's decision yet. I'm not ruling out Toei, though I'm baffled that he'd let them dictate anything. Am I underestimating how much input they get on things? It's always seemed like he's let them do their thing, while he does his own, and there's little if any communication between the two sides on future events or who's going to be important and who isn't.

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#63986: Sep 12th 2017 at 2:56:49 PM

I remember a long while ago we had a fun conversation about whether usually people transmuted by Buu's powers died outright, whether they were still alive but conscious/unconscious, and whether Vegito might be a special case due to the circumstances of his existence / the level of power he possessed.

I guess if Bulma - resident scientist - really wanted to test it, she could have Buu zap people in a controlled environment with the Dragonballs on hand. But she's probably not that reckless.

edited 12th Sep '17 3:01:12 PM by KnownUnknown

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#63987: Sep 12th 2017 at 3:00:06 PM

I always assumed they were alive until they were otherwise eaten/crushed/whatever and that Vegeta was only special in remaining conscious. As for how it works, no need to think that deeply about it, Buu's powers are explicitly magical in nature so it doesn't really matter.

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#63988: Sep 12th 2017 at 3:00:28 PM

Well, Vegito was conscious as candy, but that might've just been because Vegito was powerful enough to resist Buu's magic.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#63989: Sep 12th 2017 at 3:00:42 PM

Bulma's pretty reckless (this is a girl who went out treasure hunting without any bodyguards or anything, and would have died if she'd run into anyone but Goku), but I agree she's not that reckless.

Or cruel.

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#63990: Sep 12th 2017 at 3:03:08 PM

Since my edit got ninja'd.

[up][up][up][up][up] Those aren't really rules, it's just the formula he's fallen into and continues to use for the series. There's nothing really keeping him from structuring every storyline in that exact manner, introducing every villain in that exact manner scaling the power in that manner, etc - and that's where the "having one's cake and eating it" thing comes: he wants to use those characters, but doesn't want to augment that formula in a way that makes using those characters actually make sense.

Outside of that issue as a whole, I've felt like Super is making the same mistake as GT in running that formula without the same substance that made it work in the first place (though less so, I still enjoy Super far more than GT) - sometimes turning what was a winning setup in something that can be more of a farce. It's tied to why the newer and newer transformations don't work as well, for example - especially in contrast to the progression that built up from the first Super Saiyan to the next, it often feels like Goku is rolling out new transformations whenever a new strong guy shows up because "cool new transformations every arc" without the plot actively utilizing the previous ones in a way like what made the iconic transformations that started the trend in the first place work, resulting in both the level of power of those transformations and the strength level of the fights themselves feel cheaper.

Since that's a storyline problem part of that can probably be pinned on Toei, but a good chunk of it has to be Toriyama as well. These are things that almost certainly have to be in his notes.

Another thing that's been bugging me is the way the series has been trying to become more episodic (or more accurately, a more arc/episodic mix, including arcs that are more isolated from the arcs that surround it) - not inherently a bad thing - but has done so in a way that hurts the actual arc they're trying to tell. So the tournament has been "here's the Kale episode," "here's the Krillin episode," "here's the 17 and Ribrianne episode," with little content that actually runs across the story as a whole, resulting in little problems like nothing happening if the characters aren't there to cause or witness it, and bigger problems like there frankly being no way to use the bulk of the characters.

It just comes back to wanting to do two very different things at the same time and not thinking about how to adequately reconcile them - that kind of thinking is everywhere in this series' design.

... that turned into more of a rant than I intended it to.

edited 12th Sep '17 3:19:21 PM by KnownUnknown

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#63991: Sep 14th 2017 at 6:34:55 AM

Bit of a random though that occurred to me, but do you guys think that in the future we'll get a villain who will establish his badass cred by defeating one of the Gods of Destruction?

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#63992: Sep 14th 2017 at 7:40:51 AM

Technically Zamasu did that, albeit indirectly.

I kinda feel like it's a bit of a mistake to have the Gods of Destruction constantly present in Super. One of the things that made the Black Arc so tense was that they didn't have Beerus around to instantly fix their problem. Otherwise, you just get something like Resurrection of F where Who's basically assures the cast as Goku as fighting Frieza that they'll all survive if they stick near him.

edited 14th Sep '17 7:43:11 AM by Hobgoblin

DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#63993: Sep 14th 2017 at 9:43:01 AM

Resurrection F is the only one in which that was an issue though.

The inter-universal tournament never had high stakes to begin with. The Black arc as you said didn't have Beerus and Whis around for the actual fights. And it doesn't apply to the Tournament of Power because the Gods of Destruction are as helpless against the Grand Priest and Zen'O as anyone else.

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#63994: Sep 14th 2017 at 9:46:53 AM

I suspect that Toriyama made Beerus a lazy asshole so that, in case of any future material, he would have a convenient excuse for why Beerus doesn't help out anyone. But then Resurrection F used a Whis ex machina anyway, so I don't know.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#63995: Sep 14th 2017 at 10:15:13 AM

Well, Whis was also under the impression that Bulma was capable of making all of Earth's delicacies herself, which was the only reason he offered to keep her and anyone in his vicinity alive. Beerus didn't do jack shit to help out against Freeza, and unless Freeza did something to anger him, he would never have done anything. Whis and Beerus are two different entities, and while Whis may give you a second chance, he's still not going to directly fight alongside you.

There's no doubt in my mind that if Goku had failed to stop Freeza the second time, Beerus and Whis would've been all "well, whatever" and Bulma would the last remaining Earthling alive, forced to be Beerus' personal chef, producing whatever food she could out of memory with a total lack of ingredients.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#63996: Sep 14th 2017 at 11:07:48 AM

Apathetic Gods...

The best kind...

It doesn't matter if they're lazy or not, they just don't care.

Which is how it should be.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#63997: Sep 14th 2017 at 12:34:47 PM

Until the Top God decides their laziness has resulted in your universe being too sucky to be allowed to exist, anyway...

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#63998: Sep 14th 2017 at 12:38:40 PM

Resurrection F didn't have tension because Goku and Vegeta could have ended Freeza if they bothered to team up, not because Beerus and Whis were there.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#63999: Sep 14th 2017 at 12:52:51 PM

One thing I love is that people were talking about how Beerus is a petty, lazy dick back when Battle of Gods was recent, and the newest arc actually revealed the Beerus is one of the worst Gods of Destruction because he's a petty, lazy dick. He destroys planets on a whim and judges their worth based on the quality of their cuisine, which is a rather arbitrary and meaningless qualifier and does nothing to improve the universal society.

The other terrible Hakaishin, Cidre, is terrible for a different reason: he's too soft-hearted. It's not shown much in the show, but Cidre's bio states that he's hesitant to ever destroy anything. Cidre's kind of like a contractor with the only demolition crew in town who looks at the poor mold-and-crime-ridden slums and thinks "they're fine, there are no renovations necessary here".

I'm curious to see the better Gods of Destruction actually doing their jobs well, to see the contrast between them and Beerus and Cidre.

DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#64000: Sep 14th 2017 at 2:02:51 PM

I believe I read somewhere that the best Gods of Destruction work together with the Kaioshin of their universe to determine what things really do need to be destroyed for the benefit of all.

Compare to Beerus who barely even gives the Kaioshin the time of day and casually threatens them on a regular basis.

Also, Champa is only marginally better than Beerus, if his personality and the numbers of U6's Mortal Life Index mean anything. They're just a tiny bit above U7's.

edited 14th Sep '17 2:03:58 PM by DarkHunter


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