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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#63926: Sep 9th 2017 at 8:51:08 PM

Krillin and Tenshihan are completely impossible to justify unless you change how Power Levels work, or ignore them (and Super has been doing the latter to poor reception).

I have to admit, in the long run, using Goten and Trunks would have been better unless (as I mentioned earlier) they not put Future Trunks on a Bus like they did.

Popularity is a bitch though, but I'm really surprised that Toriyama did it like this. I never pegged him for one who does anything for Popularity (which is why it's likely Toei gave him a nudge in that direction).

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#63927: Sep 9th 2017 at 8:52:17 PM

Well, if base Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, than it follows that Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi right now are stronger than Goten or Trunks could ever dream of being.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#63928: Sep 9th 2017 at 8:54:06 PM

Even with Super logic that doesn't follow. That just makes leaving them out even more egregious.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#63929: Sep 9th 2017 at 8:54:24 PM

[up][up] Whatever happened to your "SBG must exist"?

And yeah, even if we were to take that at face value, there is absolutely no way to think that Goten and Trunks couldn't then become that strong, in base, and then fuse and become way more powerful again.

edited 9th Sep '17 8:55:59 PM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#63930: Sep 9th 2017 at 8:58:03 PM

I still think that it does. You don't however, and I was pointing out how your opinion leads to such contradictions in your arguments.

edited 9th Sep '17 8:58:41 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#63931: Sep 9th 2017 at 9:00:26 PM

Having watched some Kai, boy is it weird seeing Goku actually serious.

Such odd characterizations.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#63932: Sep 9th 2017 at 9:04:35 PM

No, you weren't. Because my argument started out with "we can't use Super as an example for power levels".

I have never argued that the lack of SBG makes sense in Super, or more sense than it being present. I only argued that I don't think it's likely that the writers consider such a thing.

edited 9th Sep '17 9:05:35 PM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#63933: Sep 9th 2017 at 9:12:23 PM

I think we can, and calculating it my way just happens to perfectly explain and contextualize all of where everyone stands compared to each other. Obviously the writers considered it, Heroes doesn't exist in a vacuum.

By the way, if Goku is maybe two or three times as strong as he was during the Buu Saga in base and Krillin is capable of putting up a fight against him, than the humans are obvious picks over the kids, because they're only slightly weaker with a wealth more experience, combat sense, and skill. Goten and Trunks are weak comparatively anyways, probably never even got past Android 16 individually and they haven't been seriously training since their months in the ROSAT.

edited 9th Sep '17 9:13:06 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#63934: Sep 9th 2017 at 9:15:01 PM

18 did triumph over the kids in the end.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#63935: Sep 9th 2017 at 9:17:17 PM

It doesn't perfectly explain anything. It's a bunch of fanon that doesn't even come close to covering the inconsistencies.

Anyway, that very example doesn't make sense at all. If Goku is three times stronger than he was in the Boo arc (no evidence of this whatsoever - future Trunks arc makes his Super Saiyan 2/3 look comparable to his Boo arc self) then Kuririn is NOWHERE near Goten and Trunks in strength because they still have Super Saiyan.

The skills/experience he has isn't worth shit (for starters - honestly, the humans don't show a great deal of skill or specific training on screen, most of the situations they find themselves in are pretty same-y). As I pointed out before, Gohan was a better pick over Goku when there was a faaaaaaaaar smaller gap between them.

Gotenks was a better pick over Goku when they didn't expect him to hit Super Saiyan 3. Goten and Trunks were a better pick over Piccolo when they didn't know fusion was an option.

The skills/experience is a huge Informed Attribute.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#63937: Sep 9th 2017 at 9:36:26 PM

Saiyan Beyond God - the idea that Goku/Vegeta can use God ki in their base state and can turn it on/off at will. Name inspired by the first Heroes card of Resurrection F Goku that had him 'transform' into "A Saiyan who has surpassed God" as a placeholder to hid the spoiler of his Blue form.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#63938: Sep 9th 2017 at 9:36:34 PM

I just realized that the Buu Saga was about Goku trying to pass down the torch to the younger generation and learning that that was a bad idea and the younger generation wasn't ready to handle it. Now I fully understand why Goten and Trunks aren't being utilized: it's because they learned that these kids are irresponsible and can't be trusted to handle serious situations when they screwed up in the Buu Saga.

[up]It's more of a Godly Ki transformation than it is another 'base' form.

edited 9th Sep '17 9:37:18 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#63939: Sep 9th 2017 at 9:39:23 PM

That's an unintentional lesson that doesn't take into account that Goku and Vegeta screwed things up just as much, if not more so, and in the end it was purely circumstance that lead to the conclusion we got.

Hell, not relying on Gotenks/Gohan actually made things harder in the end with the Spirit Bomb plan that nearly failed.

That's really reaching. You can make the argument that Goku should not have tried to palm everything off, but working together with them makes way more sense than trying to exclude them from everything. Especially when Super has gone on to establish that Goku and Vegeta will continue to make things worse as they always have.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#63940: Sep 9th 2017 at 9:44:54 PM

The "passing the torch" theme makes a lot more sense when you know Ultimate Gohan was going to be the last powerup, period at one point.

edited 9th Sep '17 9:45:07 PM by HamburgerTime

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#63941: Sep 9th 2017 at 9:52:40 PM

Indeed. A lot of people screwed up in the Buu saga (and many of them were related, proving that fucking up is a family trait.).

One Strip! One Strip!
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#63942: Sep 9th 2017 at 11:04:10 PM

As well as possible executive meddling. [nja]

"Mai waifu."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#63943: Sep 9th 2017 at 11:06:07 PM

Toriyama's been pretty open about the demands on his editors, and he's gone on record that the changes in the Boo arc where his choice. It looks a lot like executive meddling because Toriyama made the decision so abruptly.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#63944: Sep 10th 2017 at 4:56:06 AM

Goten and Trunks aren't going to get any development because all of Super right now is still a midquel. By the End of Z they show no interest in fighting. The only think bothersome about their portrayal in Super is how it contradicts that by trying to show them interested in training.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#63945: Sep 10th 2017 at 5:15:33 AM

Kids grow out their childish hobbies eventually.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#63946: Sep 10th 2017 at 10:37:26 AM

Since we have no new episode to talk about I decided to post this theory video. The premise is theorizing that Vegeta also has a new form to debut during the Battle Royal, and it proves evidence for his way of thinking this is the case.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#63947: Sep 10th 2017 at 12:17:12 PM

Wow, that guy is reaching more than Michael Jordan at the end of Space Jam.

DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#63948: Sep 10th 2017 at 12:36:05 PM

Welcome to Youtube "Theory" channels.

It's why I basically ignore them.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#63949: Sep 10th 2017 at 12:53:27 PM

[up][up] Good fucking shit that was great.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015

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