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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#63876: Sep 9th 2017 at 8:36:52 AM

I'm trying not to criticize Super by remembering that Dragon Ball wasn't this different from it.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#63877: Sep 9th 2017 at 8:39:21 AM

Oh don't say that, because that's only going to spawn debates on the subject.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#63879: Sep 9th 2017 at 9:15:15 AM

Most everything from the "Z" portion is were Super's issues come from. Franchise Original Sin and all that.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#63880: Sep 9th 2017 at 9:50:30 AM

[up]

I wouldn't mind hearing more of your thoughts on that actually.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#63881: Sep 9th 2017 at 9:52:36 AM

There's not much to think about; Z also tended to have a problem with consistent power levels, and characters acting a certain way to lengthen the plot. It's just had better writing to back it up, so those problems weren't as prominent.

edited 9th Sep '17 9:53:11 AM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#63882: Sep 9th 2017 at 9:55:47 AM

Really? Because Z was pretty firm in it's power levels.

Sure, some characters took a jump, but almost without fail, the guy with the higher Ki would win.

Hell, even the attempts to show that certain skills could bridge the gap ultimately failed. Goku destroyed his body using the Kaioken against Vegeta, and the latter just busted out his Great Ape form and won the one on one fight. The Spirit Bomb was never enough to win a fight until the final battle (which only happened due to a change in main character), and despite all the fancy tricks that many fighters busted out, heroes and villains often shut them down with raw power (or in the case of the Devil mite beam, dumb luck).

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#63883: Sep 9th 2017 at 9:58:16 AM

That's kind of exactly what Super does lol. It's just worse about it.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#63884: Sep 9th 2017 at 10:02:50 AM

I think the difference is that even if some power ups seemed somewhat arbitrary or out of nowhere in Z, they at least stayed consistent with themselves after introduction. Super tends to throw in things out of nowhere and be inconsistent with how strong they're actually supposed to be. Both actual and relative strength level of the characters fluctuates based on what's convenient for the time.

edited 9th Sep '17 10:03:20 AM by LSBK

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#63885: Sep 9th 2017 at 10:04:34 AM

Eh. Even though I get where other people are coming from, I'm pretty blasé about how Super does things, even if I wish they worked within the defined rules (for when the rules are defined) rather than just ignoring them (though I've never hidden my growing issues with some of those rules in the first place, that is, when we're even sure what those rules even are).

So, I got a thought: How do you guys feel about how Toriyama (and DB as a whole) uses some of it's characters?

Are they used effectively? Are they wasted? Should some of them have been retired and just left the stage? Is it irrelevant?

We've had a lot of discussion about which characters deserve what, or even if they deserve anything, and I'm kinda wanting to hear other thoughts about it as a whole.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#63886: Sep 9th 2017 at 10:12:54 AM

And that's exactly why so many people don't really mind what Super is doing, because they'd rather watch their favorite characters get time in the spotlight (even if it isn't exactly done well) than wasting away on the side while the Saiyans do everything. Trust me, it's a common sentiment among people that I talk that watch Super.

Super still very much is a case of Love It or Hate It.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#63888: Sep 9th 2017 at 10:19:58 AM

I'm aware. I don't agree but if you're actually just going to say "I just want to see these characters do things, and don't care if it makes sense", well I hope you enjoy. Some people have more or less admitted to that here.

The problem comes in when you try and convince me that these things are being handled well. And yeah, that's subjective, but I never find the arguments particularly convincing or well-thought. And I don't have some hatred for any of the side-characters or wanting them to not do anything, either.

Arachosia from United States Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#63889: Sep 9th 2017 at 10:35:36 AM

I wished Toriyama had figured out a way to keep the human characters relevant. But of course, bounds of reason, only the one's who had the most potential: Krillin and Tien. And not just them, but Piccolo as well.

A lot of people give DB shit, but Toriyama can be a pretty great writer when he wants to be. He's got a great imagination, so with effort I don't see how he couldn't have come up with ways for the non-Saiyan characters to keep up.

If not though, then fine. But at least commit to that decision. Like what happened with Krillin after Cell. He knew he couldn't ever hope to bridge the gap, so he moved on and started a family. Let the one's who fell behind stay there and find happiness. And don't bring them back just for shits and giggles. Krillin, Roshi, and Tien have no business being in this tournament and their performances have shown it. Just leave them be.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#63890: Sep 9th 2017 at 11:00:55 AM

And that's exactly why so many people don't really mind what Super is doing, because they'd rather watch their favorite characters get time in the spotlight (even if it isn't exactly done well) than wasting away on the side while the Saiyans do everything.

Not even the Saiyans, just Goku. Look at how Vegeta fans whine whenever he doesn't get to be the hero, see how upset Future Trunks fans were when the manga version of Super didn't fellate him like the anime did, etc.

Having more retired characters would help, though for the fighters it would never end the complaints we still see.

edited 9th Sep '17 11:02:23 AM by VeryMelon

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#63891: Sep 9th 2017 at 12:36:42 PM

Ah I think I found the poll that was mentioned a while back of two generations of Japan picking their favorite hero with Goku ended up in 1st place on both accounts.

http://www.anime-now.com/entry/2017/09/09/230012?utm_campaign=ANN

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#63892: Sep 9th 2017 at 12:47:31 PM

Oh don't say that, because that's only going to spawn debates on the subject.

Too late. sad

"Mai waifu."
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#63893: Sep 9th 2017 at 3:03:53 PM

How do you guys feel about how Toriyama (and DB as a whole) uses some of it's characters?

Let them do their own thing and/or have an arc where they fight people on their scale while the Saiyans are occupied or let them stay dead rather than reviving them for the sake of being there.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#63894: Sep 9th 2017 at 3:28:54 PM

Yeah, there's that poll I was talking about! Thanks, I tried looking for it for days after I posted it and I found nothing so I kind of gave up.

Interesting that there's no characters from Jojo on the older list and Jotaro just barely got on the younger list. Also, Lupin III got a respectable position on both.

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#63895: Sep 9th 2017 at 3:42:02 PM

On a list of strongest characters, the guy who can beat everyone in one punch is #7?

And Jotaro under Inuyasha?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#63896: Sep 9th 2017 at 3:46:28 PM

...

I really don't think Inuyasha deserves to trump Jotaro. And this is as someone relatively new to the entire Jojo franchise.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#63897: Sep 9th 2017 at 3:56:19 PM

Guy can fire cut-able black holes from his sword; pretty sure that's obvious Jotaro's pay-grade.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#63898: Sep 9th 2017 at 4:08:10 PM

It's not a ranking of most powerful, it's a ranking of best.

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#63899: Sep 9th 2017 at 4:28:42 PM

I'll put this here:

edited 9th Sep '17 4:28:59 PM by GAP

"Mai waifu."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#63900: Sep 9th 2017 at 4:33:21 PM

This is a year old video. Dude got his wish.


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