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BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#6351: May 4th 2014 at 5:28:22 PM

[up]Yeeeah, nobody's defending Episode of Bardock.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#6352: May 4th 2014 at 5:30:57 PM

Actually, I've defended it as well.

Even though I also think it's stupid.

I'm odd that way.

One Strip! One Strip!
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6353: May 4th 2014 at 5:42:38 PM

[up][up] Fan fiction is better than Episode Of Bardock and quite frankly that whole special can rot in hell for all I care.

@Tobias Drake Goku being seemingly 4-5 years old is a contradiction because at that age a Saiyan can handle heavy injuries to body and head without any consequence. I mean look at Gohan, he got his ass kicked a lot during that age but didn't suffer any brain damage and/or memory loss. So what's Goku's excuse?

edited 4th May '14 5:58:22 PM by FireShadow

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#6354: May 4th 2014 at 6:09:51 PM

Goku was a lot weaker than Gohan as a kid though.

Even if he couldn't always control it at first.

One Strip! One Strip!
Fizzo Supervillain from Brazil Since: Jun, 2010
Supervillain
#6355: May 4th 2014 at 6:13:16 PM

Well. Gohan was always way stronger than Goku was at his age, and that was never a problem. 12 years old Goku was strong, but nothing exceptional, wasn't much stronger than desert-bandit-Yamcha. 4 years old Gohan impress Raditz by having a power that would no way match an sayan-child, and 5 years old Gohan could survive a fight against Nappa, Vegeta and Freeza's minions.

Really, Goku would have died in Namek even in his 18 years.

So there is no reason to take Gohan (or any of the human/sayan hybrids, since Vegeta says in the manga that there is a probability of breeding with humans making more powerfull childs) as a parameter to how strong should Goku be at age 3 or 4. Even more if we think that he was completely untrained by that moment and was counting only with his natural-strenght.

edited 4th May '14 6:13:50 PM by Fizzo

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#6356: May 4th 2014 at 6:36:18 PM

I didn't like that the original Bardock special made Bardock so special. I appreciate that Minus didn't give him psychic powers and Toriyama comments make it obvious Bardock wasn't super strong like he is in the special (the special gives him a battle power rivaling the King, while Toriyama said he can't even be compared to middle class Saiyans) because that's far more fitting for Goku's father than being some super special guy (that Episode of Bardock makes even worse).

But that's the only thing about Minus I like more than the original special. Oh, and the mention in Minus that the Saiyan race was very small and Freeza was able to gather nearly all of them on Planet Vegeta before blowing it up.

edited 4th May '14 6:37:40 PM by Saiga

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#6357: May 4th 2014 at 6:41:50 PM

Goku's canon power level at the start of Dragon Ball was 8, according to Daizenshuu.

Just leaving that there.

[up]I liked that Vegeta's reaction basically amounting to "Mhh, ignore it and maybe it'll go away" in regards to the summons. That's something Abridged Vegeta would do.

edited 4th May '14 6:45:48 PM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#6358: May 4th 2014 at 7:01:22 PM

10, not 8.

I didn't like that because it completely contradicts what the manga says - that Freeza kept Vegeta alive deliberately. Minus doesn't even hint at that, instead showing that Vegeta only survived by ignoring the warning.

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#6359: May 4th 2014 at 7:21:11 PM

Huh... forgot about that...

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#6360: May 4th 2014 at 7:29:49 PM

I didn't like that the original Bardock special made Bardock so special. I appreciate that Minus didn't give him psychic powers and Toriyama comments make it obvious Bardock wasn't super strong like he is in the special (the special gives him a battle power rivaling the King, while Toriyama said he can't even be compared to middle class Saiyans) because that's far more fitting for Goku's father than being some super special guy (that Episode of Bardock makes even worse).

But wasn't the point behind Bardock a demonstration of Saiyan potential. He was a Low class, but because he was always fighting, he got stronger. So did the rest of his team. Also, pretty much anyone could have gotten the psychic powers; he was chosen just because the dying dude wanted one person to experience the horror of having the ability to see the future, but not be able to stop it.

I'm confused by Toriyama saying what he did, because didn't he decide he liked the Bardock special and use the latters image in the series himself.

Why suddenly change his mind?

One Strip! One Strip!
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#6361: May 4th 2014 at 7:32:22 PM

Bardock is supposed to be a loser. He's not a nice person, he's not particularly strong, he's not even really all that smart. He is a low-class saiyan, and all Kakarot could have ever aspired to be was slightly higher class. The whole point of Goku was that he came from nothing, he was the spawn of the lowest class, and between the love of his friends, and the skills he learned as a martial artist, Goku rose to be more than any saiyan could ever hope to be.

My various fanfics.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#6362: May 4th 2014 at 7:33:18 PM

No, the whole point of Bardock is that he's not the one to stop Freeza, and his struggle is futile. I am not totally keen on the Psychic powers but they still work with that because it actually taunted Bardock and lead him to his demise.

But part of Goku's character is that he comes from an unremarkable background among Saiyans, and making Bardock an exceptional Saiyan goes against that.

I don't think Toriyama was trying to deliberately retcon the special out, and he did like it, he probably just doesn't care about such changes.

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#6363: May 4th 2014 at 7:39:40 PM

I'm strangely attached to the Cell Juniors for some reason. They're not even an engaging threat, I just like them for some reason. They're always my main in the fighting games and I kinda-sorta wished they were a race option in Online (especially since promo artwork and news announcements shortly before the shutdown depicted mutated, Cell-like monstrosities that claimed to be his descendants somehow, implying a story mission that never came to light).

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Fizzo Supervillain from Brazil Since: Jun, 2010
Supervillain
#6364: May 4th 2014 at 7:42:45 PM

[up]x6 Couldn't Freeza just be lying to Vegeta?

edited 4th May '14 7:43:21 PM by Fizzo

Spirit Pretty flower from America Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Hooked on a feeling
Pretty flower
#6365: May 4th 2014 at 7:43:43 PM

Eh, Bardock didn't come off as that special during Episode of Bardock. Showed promise sure, which would explain how Goku got so special, but not all that impressive in the long run.

#IceBearForPresident
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#6366: May 4th 2014 at 8:07:05 PM

[up][up] But why would he? And why would Vegeta believe it when he knows he was off Vegeta at the time because he ignored the order?

Even if you come up with an explanation, the story doesn't, so it's inconsistent.

Fizzo Supervillain from Brazil Since: Jun, 2010
Supervillain
#6367: May 4th 2014 at 8:26:41 PM

Yes, it is as inconsistence, but a small one. It's not like it was vital information to the series or anything. The information was given to Dodoria while he was trying to bargain his life with Vegeta, he could really have said anything. And who knows what he really knows since he was not with Freeza when he decides the time to exterminate the sayans in the first place.

Vegeta never respected Freeza. And Freeza never saw Vegeta and an remarkable underling, and tried to kill him in the first clash both of them had. So I don't think that negate the "Freeza thought Vegeta was special and selected the right time so he could survive the attack" would interfet in this dinamic.

Actually, now that I'm thinking in the matter it makes little sense. If Freeza was so afraid of the Super Sayan surpassing him in power, and knew all the potencial of the race, destroying it because of that, why would he intend to let the kid with the most potential in the whole planet survive? It's from kids like Vegeta that he sould be afraid of...

edited 4th May '14 8:27:27 PM by Fizzo

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#6368: May 4th 2014 at 8:32:06 PM

Because he can kill Vegeta at any time, but otherwise Vegeta is very useful for his strength.

For most of his life Vegeta wasn't even close to a threat to Freeza, not even equal to 5% of Freeza's first form power.

edited 4th May '14 8:33:13 PM by Saiga

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#6369: May 4th 2014 at 9:11:15 PM

Indeed. Vegeta was the strongest known Saiyan (something he points out in the dub) and he was nowhere near Frieza's level even with everything he did to power-up.

Frieza was afraid of the Saiyans as a whole. The strongest single Saiyan was as much a threat to him as the strongest ant is to a human.

One Strip! One Strip!
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#6370: May 6th 2014 at 11:07:14 AM

The contradiction in DB- is that Goku is sent to Earth as a three year old, in Saiyan armor, not as a baby, and that he apparently knocks Gohan out and eats all of his food. This is a point against DB-. It's a retcon, it's not consistent. You can try to mangle it, but then what happened to Goku's Saiyan armor? That never showed up in the manga, anime, or any supplemental material that I'm aware of.

Which version is better is up to the individual. But I like the original Bardock special - it's thematic, it's interesting, and Bardock being special in his own special doesn't bother me (Super Saiyan might be too special, psychic powers aren't).

I don't like the art style used in DB-, you can't take it seriously. Goku's mom ends up with a gentle personality and not being a warrior, which doesn't correlate with what we knew about the Saiyans up to that point (granted, Episode of Bardock). [up]This is where I actually prefer Multiverse's idea with Hanasia. Gine is supposed to be gentle like Goku, maybe, but remember, Goku was supposed to be a violent toddler; it was the bump on his head that changed him. (Oddly enough, Easy Amnesia supports this).

And now Goku's origin story is an even closer imitation of Superman's origin story: planet about to blow up, sent off-world and narrowly survives homeworld's destruction, lands on Earth and becomes a hero. So yeah, I don't like that.

Part of what made Bardock interesting to me is that, prior to having the ability to see the future and losing his team, he wasn't immediately sympathetic. Minus changes that, showing him as an at least partially caring father, whereas in the special, Bardock hardly seemed to care about Kakarot (and didn't give a shit about Raditz). It's Bardock's arguable change in character that made him compelling. The scene where he comes back to Planet Vegeta moments after Kakarot was sent off, his brief vision of Goku speaking to him, as an adult? The final words we hear from him while Kakarot's asleep in his space pod? All of that's tear-jerking. Having Bardock and Gine knowingly send Kakarot away, rather than Bardock mounting a last stand against Frieza when it was too late, and witnessing Frieza's eventual defeat, loses a deal of tragic irony.

Like Episode of Bardock, Dragonball Online, and GT for some most fans, I'm content to ignore it. I don't hate it, no, I can accept it as a non-canon "for the fun of it" kind of story, but Toriyama's directly changed something that didn't have to be changed. If we're going to hold up DB- as canon from this point on, well, have fun with that.

edited 6th May '14 11:28:59 AM by FOFD

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6371: May 6th 2014 at 11:32:36 AM

[up] Claps very slow [awesome]

Thank you. You have beautifully summed up what I have said and thought about Dragon Ball Minus. It's a full blown retcon and something that must be addressed through a reboot. Because if it isn't then we are essentially dealing with two separate timelines within the same manga; one where he hit his head as a baby and where he one didn't.

And just to make things even more confusing, in Dragon Ball Minus Frieza states he knows about the legend of the Super Saiyan God, this essentially means that the events of Battle Of Gods are officially canon because it got Hand Waved into existence. And since that's the case, why didn't Beerus make an appearance in Dragon Ball Minus? He's essentially the most important background character ever, if what stated in Battle Of Gods and what Toriyama has stated in recent interviews is true.

Oh and for the record, personally, Dragon Ball Minus as a whole is pretty "meh". The main hook is just to see Goku's mom... that's pretty much it.

Because of what's happened in Dragon Ball Minus and Jaco The Galactic Patrolman, the first fourteen years of Goku's life have officially become a mystery. And that's where the fan fiction starts... tongue

I hope that there is some what we can mesh the events of Dragon Ball Minus and Bardock: The Father Of Goku together to get one cohesive story, but honestly, they are far too contradictory of each other to work.

edited 6th May '14 12:23:17 PM by FireShadow

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#6372: May 6th 2014 at 11:43:34 AM

If you ask me, Toriyama's trying too hard to squeeze BoG into canon. It wasn't even that good of a movie, but that's beside the point - everything else since then — the interviews, DB–/Jaco, the recent games — has just seemed like one big commercial for it.

On another note, it seems like he also Hand Wave'd the contradictions by having Beerus talk about alternate universes in the movie itself... Sloppy, Akira. Sloppy.

edited 6th May '14 11:46:12 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6373: May 6th 2014 at 12:21:48 PM

[up] It's more than just sloppy, it's bordering on not just giving a flying fuck about consistency. This only further supports my idea of a Dragon Ball reboot..

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#6374: May 6th 2014 at 12:24:27 PM

let the guy rest already.its obvious he's sick of DB,isnt it? tongue

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6375: May 6th 2014 at 12:43:55 PM

[up] Well he did say he got tired of fighting manga when he was writing the Buu Arc. He should make another successful gag manga, that'll cheer him up. smile

edited 6th May '14 12:51:40 PM by FireShadow


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