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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#62676: Aug 18th 2017 at 4:10:36 PM

Nothing wrong with changing things up every now & then.

I mean when your this successful why can't you try something different for once?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#62677: Aug 18th 2017 at 4:11:43 PM

The only issue with Vegeta is if he gets enough "due" to maintain whatever level of credibility the narrative wants him to have.

And I think he does. Fans may call him the punching bag and whatever, but he's always given moments in-between to establish growth and competence so it still has meaning if he's used as a worf for something.

But if he didn't have those moments, it'd wouldn't make sense when the narrative treats him/beating him as a big deal.

edited 18th Aug '17 4:12:51 PM by Saiga

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#62678: Aug 18th 2017 at 4:26:30 PM

Vegeta's first appearance has him wrecking everyone's shit and requiring several different miracles to take down.

He spends a solid portion of the Namek Saga getting shit down and wrecking everyone. Then the Ginyus show up and it's a back-and-forth of Vegeta wrecking everyone and getting wrecked until Freeza starts fighting.

In the Android Saga, Vegeta's first fight is him utterly wrecking 19's shit. Then he gets both of his arms broken by 18. Then he stomps Semi-perfect Cell into the dirt as Super Vegeta. Then he gets wrecked by Perfect Cell. Then he almost kills Perfect Cell with his Final Flash. Then Cell almost kills him.

Then there's the Boo Saga where Vegeta's character arc comes to a close as he realizes that Earth has changed him, he has become soft, Goku is better than him and all of that is okay. He ends the saga— and the series until Super— willingly putting his entire existence on the line in a fight he knows he can never win just to buy Goku enough time to regain his ki then is later willing to put his newly regained life on the line to buy Goku time to charge the Genki Dama even though he doesn't even have the energy to transform.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#62679: Aug 18th 2017 at 4:28:51 PM

How utterly assimilated to Earth culture Vegeta ended up getting is one of the funniest things in the series to me. Especially when you know Toriyama apparently wanted him to be the Final Boss for a while.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#62680: Aug 18th 2017 at 4:31:59 PM

Hell in GT he appears to have given up fighting entirely & no longer wears his jumpsuits.

Wait was it ever mentioned that he had a job in GT?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#62681: Aug 18th 2017 at 4:38:44 PM

I am not sure but I wouldn't be surprised if he did. It almost funny that Vegeta became somewhat human whereas Goku is barely clinging to humanity in Super.

Vegeta's first appearance has him wrecking everyone's shit and requiring several different miracles to take down.

He spends a solid portion of the Namek Saga getting shit down and wrecking everyone. Then the Ginyus show up and it's a back-and-forth of Vegeta wrecking everyone and getting wrecked until Freeza starts fighting.

In the Android Saga, Vegeta's first fight is him utterly wrecking 19's shit. Then he gets both of his arms broken by 18. Then he stomps Semi-perfect Cell into the dirt as Super Vegeta. Then he gets wrecked by Perfect Cell. Then he almost kills Perfect Cell with his Final Flash. Then Cell almost kills him.

Then there's the Boo Saga where Vegeta's character arc comes to a close as he realizes that Earth has changed him, he has become soft, Goku is better than him and all of that is okay. He ends the saga— and the series until Super— willingly putting his entire existence on the line in a fight he knows he can never win just to buy Goku enough time to regain his ki then is later willing to put his newly regained life on the line to buy Goku time to charge the Genki Dama even though he doesn't even have the energy to transform.

The only issue with Vegeta is if he gets enough "due" to maintain whatever level of credibility the narrative wants him to have. And I think he does. Fans may call him the punching bag and whatever, but he's always given moments in-between to establish growth and competence so it still has meaning if he's used as a worf for something. But if he didn't have those moments, it'd wouldn't make sense when the narrative treats him/beating him as a big deal.

Fair Enough.

edited 18th Aug '17 4:42:03 PM by GAP

"Mai waifu."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#62682: Aug 18th 2017 at 4:44:21 PM

The fact of the matter in any fanbase is that they want their favorite characters to "look cool" regardless of much sense it makes, because what matters to them isn't the story but how their favorite characters look.

Now granted, I can understand if you're not a fan of the main character of a particular work and more of a fan of his supporting cast. But a lot of these "fans" just kind of want the story to bend backwards to cater to them because they're unhappy with it, but never consider that other people might be enjoying the series fine and that their opinion is a (very, extremely vocal) minority.

It's the same people who complain about Gohan, Broly, Piccolo etc etc. And I see these types of fans all of the time when it comes to Shonen. It's really grating.

edited 18th Aug '17 4:50:57 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#62683: Aug 18th 2017 at 4:49:47 PM

Vegeta ain't even an issue to me. He's had a solid character arc.

I know people feel he backslid a bit in Super, but I recall a tumblr post or something that was put up that explained it. The crux of that argument was, yes he's back to competing with Goku, but now he's no longer acting like he's already supposed to be the best.

Now he understands that he's got a ways to go and he's got to do the actual work or something like that.

Anyway, Vegeta is one of the few characters to have a long term arc across the series, rather than finish it in the same arc he showed up in and then basically only show up out of obligation (that obligation being to get stomped by someone else).

He gets to have both of those.[lol]

But yeah, he's had some great moments of awesome, even if only so that when he gets beat down, it has far more meaning. I guess that's why he's the best Worf. Because he actually beats people down effectively, it does a better job of showing how bad things are when someone dances along his monkey face like he was nothing.

Vegeta isn't really a problem. He's doing what he's supposed to do.

One Strip! One Strip!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#62684: Aug 18th 2017 at 5:04:44 PM

The absolute funniest thing about Vegeta becoming a semi-normal Earth dad, though? According to a post-series interview with Toriyama, the Saiyans had no real concept of family, they just banged every so often to have kids and shipped the kids out conquering for the PTO as soon as they could walk. Gine, Goku and Raditz's mother, was considered a genetic anomaly because she actually cared about them. Keep in mind Vegeta is Mr. Saiyan Pride, and yet somehow his experiences on Earth squeezed this out of him.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#62685: Aug 18th 2017 at 5:09:49 PM

I believe it was said that King Vegeta and his family were exceptions to that rule.

The common grunts had that attitude, but the royal family were more of an actual family...or as close as you could get with Saiyans.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#62686: Aug 18th 2017 at 5:14:17 PM

Yeah, but Vegeta was exceptionally evil by Saiyan standards so it still fits.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#62687: Aug 18th 2017 at 5:14:53 PM

Its pretty hilarious that Gine has some genetic anomaly shit that makes her a better person than most Saiyan's yet it seems to have skipped a generation in Goku.

That attempt to make his mom & by extension Goku even more special & Toriyama rather flubbed it up

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#62688: Aug 18th 2017 at 5:18:20 PM

Good point.

That just makes his decision to make Gine a non warrior even more pointless.

He's flat out said that Goku sees his family as important companions rather than as...well family, which means that making Gine a gentle soul who doesn't fight in a society of warriors, was utterly pointless...but it wouldn't be the first time he did this, and was have Caulifa now for female saiyans, and female super saiyans, so I guess it doesn't matter.

One Strip! One Strip!
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#62689: Aug 18th 2017 at 5:19:33 PM

But a lot of these "fans" just kind of want the story to bend backwards to cater to them because they're unhappy with it, but never consider that other people might be enjoying the series fine and that their opinion is a (very, extremely vocal) minority.

Well yeah. That's how opinions work. It's weird that you're trying to make it sound like some awful thing.

edited 18th Aug '17 5:20:56 PM by Moth13

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#62690: Aug 18th 2017 at 5:19:40 PM

The fact of the matter in any fanbase is that they want their favorite characters to "look cool" regardless of much sense it makes, because what matters to them isn't the story but how their favorite characters look.

Now granted, I can understand if you're not a fan of the main character of a particular work and more of a fan of his supporting cast. But a lot of these "fans" just kind of want the story to bend backwards to cater to them because they're unhappy with it, but never consider that other people might be enjoying the series fine and that their opinion is a (very, extremely vocal) minority.

It's the same people who complain about Gohan, Broly, Piccolo etc etc. And I see these types of fans all of the time when it comes to Shonen. It's really grating.

Unfortunately, I think that describes me to a tee in regards to Super. I think that I might be had been too critical because the story was going in another direction than I thought it did. Super does have flaws and it does improve somewhat but most of my 'criticisms' is how it relies on my nostalgia and how it seems like some of the characters like I had imagined them to be. I also learned a lot more about Goku before they turned him into a strange parody of himself in Super and Goku is actually a good guy but he is flawed individual. This post describes me and my 'frustrations' with Super as of late.

edited 18th Aug '17 5:20:03 PM by GAP

"Mai waifu."
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#62691: Aug 18th 2017 at 5:21:06 PM

Vegeta ain't even an issue to me. He's had a solid character arc. I know people feel he backslid a bit in Super, but I recall a tumblr post or something that was put up that explained it. The crux of that argument was, yes he's back to competing with Goku, but now he's no longer acting like he's already supposed to be the best. Now he understands that he's got a ways to go and he's got to do the actual work or something like that.

That's something I can appreciate. Vegeta still has a chip on his soldier, but he's no longer fucking everyone over because it.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#62692: Aug 18th 2017 at 5:23:17 PM

In the case of Gohan you can also justify his family-nature by just being half-human, having inherited it directly from Chi-Chi.

You can easily write Gine out of the equation entirely.

Which is good cause Gine isn't that good of character. Now that we have Cauli & Kale as true female warrior Saiyans she can just be nicely forgotten.

edited 18th Aug '17 5:30:24 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#62693: Aug 18th 2017 at 5:25:03 PM

[up][up]

Exactly. unlike during the Cell and Buu sagas where he was constantly making the situation worse in some way (well, ok, once in each, but that was all it really took) due to wanting to prove he was the biggest baddest dog in the yard, now he's aware of his situation, and working to better himself.

edited 18th Aug '17 5:25:19 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#62694: Aug 18th 2017 at 5:27:08 PM

[up][up]After all, it is human to make mistakes and Gohan does make some mistakes in Dragon Ball. It is also human to learn from those mistakes which he did......I think.

[up] I guess. Still, ti seem as though Vegeta will play second fiddle to Goku and I guess I need to be content with that.

edited 18th Aug '17 5:29:33 PM by GAP

"Mai waifu."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#62695: Aug 18th 2017 at 5:33:16 PM

Yes, Vegeta will always play second fiddle to Goku, that's basically the entire point of his character.

Well yeah. That's how opinions work. It's weird that you're trying to make it sound like some awful thing.

"Different opinions" only takes things so far. it gets to a point where were respecting other people's opinions stops being a thing, if it's clear you only care about one character to the detriment of everything else.

And as I put this, I assume you're probably just going to say "opinions" again, but, there's no helping that.

edited 18th Aug '17 5:35:19 PM by LSBK

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#62696: Aug 18th 2017 at 5:36:07 PM

I think Saiga does have the right of it. Everyone went "Prince of all Jobbers!" when Vegeta got taken out by Hit, but the reason being worfed worked was because he had just come off of taking out Frost, Cabba, and Magetta all in a row.

[up]What do you consider the different between disrespecting and disagreeing with opinions?

edited 18th Aug '17 5:37:13 PM by Moth13

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#62697: Aug 18th 2017 at 5:37:04 PM

Vegeta ain't even an issue to me. He's had a solid character arc. I know people feel he backslid a bit in Super, but I recall a tumblr post or something that was put up that explained it. The crux of that argument was, yes he's back to competing with Goku, but now he's no longer acting like he's already supposed to be the best. Now he understands that he's got a ways to go and he's got to do the actual work or something like that.

That's generally not the issue people have with Vegeta (edit: not here, anyway, I know there are a number of fans who think Vegeta would have completely dropped the rivalry). The manga still made it clear he would continue to compete with Goku.

The problem is that he acts a great deal like his Android arc self, and behaves the same way. They will mention his character development every so often, but still have him acting like he has the same unhealthy approach to everything.

In a nutshell, Super will include plenty of reminders of how he's changed, but when they're not deliberately pointing it out they have him act as though he never changed. It doesn't feel very consistent or organic.

edited 18th Aug '17 5:38:23 PM by Saiga

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#62698: Aug 18th 2017 at 5:38:25 PM

Ya know if they ever try to remake the Baby Arc I would like for Goku to be the one taken over & Vegeta is left as the sole person not controlled by Baby.

I think that would lead to some cool shit.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#62699: Aug 18th 2017 at 5:39:00 PM

[up][up][up]Well, it takes a lot for me to get there. I don't really think I've come across anyone here like that, but when it's clear that a person just wants to see their favorite character show off or whatever, without regard for what that means to the plot or other characters, I can't really take that seriously.

TV Tropes is generally is one of the best places to discuss things like this I find.

edited 18th Aug '17 5:39:51 PM by LSBK

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#62700: Aug 18th 2017 at 5:47:47 PM

[up][up][up] One thing I've been liking of the dub so far (keep in mind that I only started watching when it got to the new stuff) is that Vegeta's been super chill about stuff and acts a bit more like a bro towards Goku. It works amazingly well as an extension of Vegeta's character after the Boo Saga.

In fact, one of the crowning examples of Vegeta's growth is that he willingly spent three straight years in total isolation with Goku. He would have rather died than do that at any point before the end of the Boo Saga.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!

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