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Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#62501: Aug 13th 2017 at 3:31:37 PM

Seriously, I get people thinking Goku is an idiot, but did they also think he actually sucked at fighting? That's the only explanation I can come up with for why anyone would think him constantly letting his guard down and being bailed out by other people makes sense.

That and the other characters constantly reminding him.

edited 13th Aug '17 3:31:50 PM by Lionheart0

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#62502: Aug 13th 2017 at 4:29:42 PM

You say that as if Goku hasn't only been using the Kamehameha throughout the entire series; hell, he's the only one who has never come up with their own original move unlike everyone else, unless you want to count the anime-only Dragon Fist.

No... I don't have an issue with the KHH being used, I have an issue with it being spamming as often as it is in Super.

Not as bad as it was in the BOG arc, but he uses it noticeably more often than he did in the manga.

Jedi1113 Since: Jun, 2009
#62503: Aug 13th 2017 at 4:42:35 PM

Why is it an issue to you? Actually curious.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#62504: Aug 13th 2017 at 5:11:32 PM

It gets really repetituve, especially when the moves are so straightforward. It's okay when used as key moments, but repeated use doesn't make for good fight choreography.

It also cheapens/devalues techniques if they are used repeatedly, especially for trivial uses (against weaker opponents/fights already won) or to no effect.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#62505: Aug 13th 2017 at 5:44:44 PM

There's only so much creativity you can get out of energy attacks. Eventually, you're going to have to reuse moves, and you might as well reuse them with the character who already used that move first. Besides, better to reuse the more unique techniques rather than just spam generic ki blasts, which was one of the most common criticisms of the Z anime. Reusing the unique attacks looks cooler and works better for making fight choreography creative and dynamic anyways.

Most of your complaints boil down to They Changed It, Now It Sucks!, regardless of how well or not it's actually executed.

edited 13th Aug '17 5:46:39 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#62506: Aug 13th 2017 at 5:48:52 PM

You don't need to re-use energy attacks. As pointed out before, the manga had a tonne of moves it never re-used, and if you just don't use energy attacks as often as Toei does you'd have no problem.

And no, it's not purely bevause they changed things - the execution is poor as well. I already pointed out above why over-use and re-use are unsatisfactory, so you don't need to strawman it.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#62507: Aug 13th 2017 at 5:49:57 PM

Dragon Ball really did start it all. Now a days ki blasts are kinda boring compared to the variety of different powers introduced to shonen over the years.

I mean the characters just use very simple martial arts, no weapons or different looking fighting styles influenced by various different martial arts.

The powers & abilities of the genre really have grown over the years.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#62508: Aug 13th 2017 at 5:50:07 PM

Saiga's complaints don't sound at all like They Changed It, Now It Sucks! to me.

Again, there's a middle ground to be had here, and Super isn't using it. Just throwing in "iconic" attacks doesn't make fight choreography better, and it inevitably wears the appeal of those moves down, due to ineffectiveness or overexposure.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#62509: Aug 13th 2017 at 5:51:41 PM

Well, the manga introduced attacks mostly to have them fail completely.

It was rare when a technique any of the Z warriors used even worked the first time. With the exception of the Kamehameha, it was Son of Moag city.

Edit: [up] Ok, I can get that. But if the techniques and combat are getting stale, it might because so many techniques were introduced only to be promptly foiled by Goku's tendency to find a way to No-Sell them, and then for enemies as strong as, or stronger than Goku to come along, allowing them to do the same by default.

Maybe if the series didn't keep shrinking the number of techniques it could use.

edited 13th Aug '17 5:54:04 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#62510: Aug 13th 2017 at 5:56:09 PM

I thought it was cool when 17 put up his barrier and spun it around super fast to knock Kakunsa off. Cooler than if he had just punched her or blasted her away.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#62511: Aug 13th 2017 at 5:57:05 PM

I can certainly agree that technique overuse is annoying, even if it happened with a move I didn't think was particularly overused. If Vegetto came out for every threat, he would very rapidly get on my nerves.

edited 13th Aug '17 5:58:12 PM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#62512: Aug 13th 2017 at 5:57:28 PM

Well, that was actually creative instead of just "17 makes his barrier just because".

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#62513: Aug 13th 2017 at 6:01:18 PM

Yeah. If I understand correctly, Saiga's complaint isn't necessarily that they're reusing techniques (although I think he has a minor problem with that as well), it's that they're being poorly reused. Instead of using them to do something meaningful, they're using them because they're iconic.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#62514: Aug 13th 2017 at 6:08:02 PM

I can only think of a few times a unique technique has been used in Super where it wasn't meaningful in some way. There's 17 using his barrier against someone offscreen during the montage, Team Nerd's combined attack on U10 and Botamo which did nothing, and...? Almost every time anyone's used a unique move, it has accompanied either an elimination or an emotional peak of the episode in question.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#62515: Aug 13th 2017 at 6:27:17 PM

It just sounds like an Anime vs. Manga debate to me :V

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#62517: Aug 13th 2017 at 8:55:45 PM

I'm completely fine with energy shield being 17's "thing". It's a cool and useful move, and it's a nice change up from endless punches/lasers.

I think Piccolo using Hellzone Grenade would have had more impact if Rozie hadn't done basically the exact same move earlier in the episode.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#62518: Aug 13th 2017 at 9:00:09 PM

So...would Super Saiyan 4 look better or worse without the tail?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#62519: Aug 13th 2017 at 9:00:46 PM

Worse.

Without the tail the whole monkey theme would be ruined.

edited 13th Aug '17 9:35:55 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#62521: Aug 13th 2017 at 9:03:40 PM

Follow-up question, would Oozaru look better or worse without the tail?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#62522: Aug 13th 2017 at 9:05:24 PM

Honestly I'm not sure. When somethings had something for so long, its hard to imagine it without that particular detail.

Though the tail is also a weakness so without it all those ape-shit moments couldn't have been solved.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#62523: Aug 13th 2017 at 9:08:05 PM

Is the Oozaru supposed to even be an ape?

edited 13th Aug '17 9:11:39 PM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#62524: Aug 13th 2017 at 9:34:03 PM

No. The Oozaru is a giant monkey. In fact, that's what the Japanese literally translates to. Blame bad dubbing practices for calling it an ape.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#62525: Aug 13th 2017 at 9:35:27 PM

The word saru/zaru can be used interchangeably for monkey or ape, but given the tail, yeah, monkey works better.


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