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Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#61976: Jul 30th 2017 at 11:39:36 AM

[up] He and Vegeta also went blue to knock the wolf trio off the stage. He probably could have gone regular Super Saiyan to escape that hold and both he and Vegeta were already stronger than the wolf trio without having to resort to Blue.

DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#61977: Jul 30th 2017 at 11:48:53 AM

Did they? I'd forgotten that.

That one does seem overkill, I'll admit.

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#61978: Jul 30th 2017 at 12:20:47 PM

Suffice to say that Goku holding back hasn't been consistent in the show.

edited 30th Jul '17 12:23:24 PM by GAP

"Mai waifu."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#61979: Jul 30th 2017 at 1:49:54 PM

Also ignoring that Goku always busts put his strongest form all throughout Z to fight the latest threat in the manga.

Even in Bo G, he immediately goes Super Saiyan 3 to fight Beerus. Super is the one that invented this "holding back" bullshit to create some artificial tension.

The manga is at least consistent with its power scaling, even if it's still flawed.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#61980: Jul 30th 2017 at 1:52:12 PM

Um, no, Super didn't invent it; Goku did it all the fucking time back in the tournaments during Dragon Ball, as well as during his fight with Uub during the epilogue.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#61981: Jul 30th 2017 at 1:55:16 PM

True, but I don't believe it was ever a thing with him during life or death struggles.

I mean, there was the fight with Frieza, but that was them just feeling each other out (plus he lacked any direct animosity towards Frieza at the time).

Edit: Also, Masako brings up an interesting point in his review of the episode.

Vermouth did say that Cyborg Eye dude had CONQUERED many planets. I noticed it before, but it slipped my mind later. I'd be disappointed if it turned out the Pride Troopers weren't the good guys we'd been made to believe they were. I like that they are unambiguous heroes.

That being said, I'm wondering maybe Toriyama just doesn't like those types of characters:

  • He wanted Goku to be as far from a traditional hero as possible (something he arguably failed at doing);

  • He gave up on Gohan, who was a super hero for a short while, and is one of the more heroic characters in the series;

  • All the current good guys were former villains to one degree or another (in the case of Krillin, just a jerk, and in the case of Frieza, still an actual villain).

I might be reading too much into it, but lets see.

edited 30th Jul '17 2:19:36 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#61982: Jul 30th 2017 at 2:33:42 PM

Goku mostly holds back during tournaments (he even call it his "tournament mode") mostly because he was much stronger than almost everyone anyway. During serious life or death fights he usually doesn't hold back unless he's already capable of dominating with a fraction of his power, like against Ginyuu force.

I don't recall him ever just letting weaker people push him around just for the sake of holding back.

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#61983: Jul 30th 2017 at 2:34:26 PM

Hems 98 confirms is a bit of a mistranslation: In Japanese 攻略/kouryaku doesn't quite have the same sinister connotations as "conquer". It means to capture/defeat via strategy.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#61984: Jul 30th 2017 at 2:41:59 PM

Pride Troopers strike me as bit of stuck up, pompous dicks, but I don't think they are full on Villains with good publicity like Frost was.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#61985: Jul 30th 2017 at 2:47:22 PM

[up][up]That's what I thought. Kahseral probably just won some wars to liberate a bunch of planets from tyranny, that's all.

DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#61986: Jul 30th 2017 at 3:12:24 PM

[up][up]Well, the fact that they're called the Pride Troopers rather than, say, the Justice Troopers does set off alarm bells.

People with who define themselves by pride tend to end up doing stupid and/or evil things.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#61987: Jul 30th 2017 at 3:40:55 PM

Seconding Dark Hunter. The name was a dead givaway.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#61988: Jul 30th 2017 at 3:49:41 PM

I thought it was because they were the pride of Universe 11.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#61989: Jul 30th 2017 at 3:53:09 PM

Yea. In a more cynical series they'd be a group of Knight Templars.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#61990: Jul 30th 2017 at 3:55:22 PM

Or a bunch of ineffectual jokes.

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GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#61991: Jul 30th 2017 at 3:59:53 PM

[up] Which pretty much every Toriyama jobber...

"Mai waifu."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#61992: Jul 30th 2017 at 4:03:13 PM

...and quite a few main characters...at least compared to Goku...which is all the time.

One Strip! One Strip!
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#61993: Jul 30th 2017 at 4:04:28 PM

If there is one thing that is consistent about Dragon Ball is that anyone not named Goku is either ineffectual, a joke or both at same time.

"Mai waifu."
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#61994: Jul 30th 2017 at 4:44:19 PM

Yeah I figured it was a mistranslation, since this is the guy who was literally rescuing a cat for some kids.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#61995: Jul 30th 2017 at 5:01:26 PM

[up][up]That is true.

And if you are lucky enough to not be a joke compared to Goku (as in on par with him or stronger) than he'll then not only surpass you, but do so with such ease that anyone who never saw your previous fight with be baffled at the idea that you were ever in his league.

God help you if you tried to kill him if you're in the latter camp too, cause he'll fuck you up.

Funny thing, I recall reading somewhere that Goku was actually equal with both Tao and Piccolo Sr. after he got power ups for both rematches. I guess the reason he seemed stronger was because neither of them were used to fighting someone who didn't fold like wet paper in a fight against them.

Unlike Tien, who legitimately enjoyed the challenge, and was arguably able to rise to that challenge presented by Goku (even if he wasn't able to win legitimately).

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#61996: Jul 30th 2017 at 5:05:17 PM

He was about equal to King Piccolo, but he was stronger than Taopaipai. Granted, the difference between them was smaller than it was the other way before Goku trained with Korin, but he was still stronger.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#61997: Jul 30th 2017 at 5:08:13 PM

It couldn't have been that small. He was knocking Tao around pretty well.

We know that the closer two fighters are in power, the more damage they can do to each other (with fighters who are too weaker being incapable of even scratching an enemy), but it's never been clear how small the gap needs to be to do real damage.

If we take the difference in power between Saiyan Saga Piccol (max 3500) and Nappa (max 4000) into account, then it's gotta be less than 500, because again, Nappa utterly stomped Piccolo as easily as he did everyone else.

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#61998: Jul 30th 2017 at 6:08:58 PM

Must we always go back to the "Everyone but Goku is useless" statement. Haven't we beaten that horse to death already?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#61999: Jul 30th 2017 at 6:15:52 PM

I find it hilarious that Tien Kikoho'd the Cell lookalike off the stage.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#62000: Jul 30th 2017 at 6:29:19 PM

[up][up]

It's not really false. Hell, Toriyama often had Goku go off and leave his friends behind to go on adventures or fight the bad guy. When he wasn't around to fight the bad guy and they tried to pick up the slack, they tended to get stomped and hard.

The entirety of the Android Arc is built upon the Z Warriors getting wiped out because Goku was not there to fight with them.

Hell, back in the 23 Budokai, Piccolo easily fended off the other characters when they tried to jump in and help despite the fact that he was practically dead. A significantly weakened Piccolo was still so far above them that if Goku had not found a way to win, he had slaughtered them utterly.

I love these guys, but...well, without Goku, they can't do shit. They'll try, but they will fail.

Also, how come there's still no full version of Limit Break X Survivor yet?

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