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GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#61326: Jul 21st 2017 at 1:53:14 PM

[up] That explains his demeanor as Zeno never had any parental figures to discipline him and Daishikan more or less shelters him from the outside world. He is like Anthony Freemond(?) in that regard.

"Mai waifu."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#61327: Jul 21st 2017 at 3:41:29 PM

So...what do you guys think?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#61328: Jul 21st 2017 at 3:47:24 PM

I dunno, the Zamasu army freaking out was hilarious, and some of the panels are just begging to be turned into reaction images, but the rest of the chapter was kinda mediocre. Zamasu army lacks the "oh shit" factor of of Zamasuverse and the whole thing lacks the emotional punch it had in the anime. Even Trunks is like "eh, could be worse" after his universe got fucking nuked into oblivion and the whole thing just fizzles out.

This really is the main problem of the manga - it lacks the punch. Everything feels kind of just flat for the lack of a better word.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#61329: Jul 21st 2017 at 4:03:22 PM

[up] That's one of the problems with Super in general, regardless of the medium.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#61330: Jul 21st 2017 at 4:04:11 PM

[up][up][up]

Phew. Escalation truly is one of the biggest issues in Shonen. Though, considering that Toriyama wanted Goku to continue to strive to be stronger, and for stronger enemies to appear for him to fight, Dragonball might have been invoking Serial Escalation.

edited 21st Jul '17 4:04:29 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#61331: Jul 21st 2017 at 4:08:46 PM

Actually, did Zeno destroy the universe, or the timeline, because if it was just the universe, then what was stopping them from just sending Trunks and Mai to Universe 6 to live with all the heroic Saiyans?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#61332: Jul 21st 2017 at 4:09:59 PM

[up][up] Dragon Ball is the harbinger of it yea.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#61333: Jul 21st 2017 at 4:12:19 PM

That's one of the problems with Super in general, regardless of the medium.

Indeed. Super's problems are not confined to either the anime or manga.

edited 21st Jul '17 4:13:54 PM by VeryMelon

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#61334: Jul 21st 2017 at 4:13:48 PM

Well we won't know for a long time, if ever, since it won't be allowed in the Tournament.

Well I got proven wrong quick. Looks like even Beerus can't kill immortals, which is why he talks about having to use that sealing technique he used on Old Kai in both the anime and the manga.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#61335: Jul 21st 2017 at 4:17:35 PM

So what, would Fused Zamasu just have been turned to dust, before reforming then?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#61336: Jul 21st 2017 at 4:23:36 PM

Escalation isn't a problem. It can just be used poorly like everything else.

Since I disagree on such a fundamental point, I doubt I will get anything out of watching the video.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#61337: Jul 21st 2017 at 4:27:53 PM

That is true. I admit I believe that there are technically no bad ideas, just really bad execution.

So then you think the escalation in Dragonball is ok then? That it's not a real issue?

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#61338: Jul 21st 2017 at 4:30:47 PM

[up][up]Agreed. I thought the video explained their point well enough, and I like Gigguk's content, but I can't agree with calling escalation as a concept a problem. Like most everything else it has to be judged on a case by case basis. You can't compare Naruto and Bleach's escalation because those had different issues exclusive to their own series, for example. On that same token, you cannot point at One Piece or Hunter x Hunter and say they handled the issue better because those series have different ideas in mind for their stories than something like Dragon Ball does.

edited 21st Jul '17 4:31:04 PM by VeryMelon

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#61339: Jul 21st 2017 at 4:30:57 PM

Oh i think there totally are bad ideas

And DB's escalation is one thing I really like about it. It can't continue on forever, but I don't think anything should be aiming for that. And that's where I think the actual shonen problem resides: the industry encouraging long runners without concrete planning.

[up] Yeah, I think the point about different stories is very important.

On Bleach, I don't think it really had that much escalation? Like "Captain level" is still important in the final arc, even if there existed several steps above that.

edited 21st Jul '17 4:32:39 PM by Saiga

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#61340: Jul 21st 2017 at 4:37:41 PM

Bleach is actually a very good example of what I meant about each series having their own escalation issues. The more powerful characters in the series eventually had abilities that made them functionally invincible by design, while excluding traditional power level climb like in Dragon Ball. You could be stronger in a normal sense, but if have no answer to a certain power someone had then you lose.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#61341: Jul 21st 2017 at 4:39:19 PM

That's not true, there is reiatsu. Kubo isn't always consistent about it and it's not as straightforward as "strong people no sell all weaker abilities" but it's there.

And since Reiatsu is the one thing everyone can train, I think it works for the balance. The other way to balance abilities is to give all of them inherent weaknesses, which Kubo doesn't do (and doesn't always work)

edited 21st Jul '17 4:41:17 PM by Saiga

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#61342: Jul 21st 2017 at 5:26:18 PM

I guess I shouldn't have discussed Bleach so liberally, but my point here was showing what makes its escalation different from other Shonen manga. Which is also my way of explaining why you can't make a blanket statement about escalation being bad in general.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#61343: Jul 21st 2017 at 5:38:19 PM

The problem with Dragon Ball Super's manga is that it fails to tell an emotionally compelling narrative. Toyotaro seems only interested in following Toriyama's script to the letter and hoping that fancy artwork can make up for it. Toei, on the other hand, seems to actually be putting effort into how the arc will resonate with the audience emotionally, even if the artwork is occasionally worse.

Both versions introduce plot inconsistencies left and right, so it really comes down to whichever you prefer: a brief and bare-bones story that looks nice but doesn't excite, or a more stretched out and detailed story that occasionally looks goofy but actually tries to be emotionally compelling. I'll take the latter over the former any day.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#61344: Jul 21st 2017 at 5:41:26 PM

Meh. I say they both suck.

But I wanna see what happens, so I'll stick with both.

I do find the differences between the two mediums interesting.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#61345: Jul 21st 2017 at 7:01:14 PM

I felt like the main point the video wasn't saying escalation in itself isn't inherently bad, because he praised other series for doing it. Rather, the escalation of certain series removes the down to earth and emotional roots of the characters.

Dragon Ball didn't suffer as much as Naruto or Bleach did in that regard, but you can see a bit of it when he goes over "The Piccolo effect".

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#61346: Jul 21st 2017 at 7:21:21 PM

Naruto has a lot of problems but I honestly don't think escalation is one of them. How Kishimoto went about the escalation in certain cases but not the escalation itself.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#61347: Jul 21st 2017 at 7:26:13 PM

Toei, on the other hand, seems to actually be putting effort into how the arc will resonate with the audience emotionally

A positive statement about Toei? Did I just stumble into Bizarro Land?

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#61348: Jul 21st 2017 at 7:52:08 PM

Escalation is like most tropes, it can be used properly or poorly depending on the writer.

"Mai waifu."

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