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Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#61251: Jul 19th 2017 at 10:29:11 AM

The Universe 12 time traveler was mentioned by Gowasu in the manga, and explains where the first of the five (now six) time rings came from.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#61252: Jul 19th 2017 at 10:44:43 AM

One split per time ring, I take it.

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#61253: Jul 19th 2017 at 10:59:35 AM

[up] Now you're thinking with rings!

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#61254: Jul 19th 2017 at 6:41:34 PM

DBZ time travel is that you can't change the future...any attempt to alter the future branches the timeline.

Except when you're Zamas.

Erm, time travel in Dragon Ball isn't very weird: Travelling from the future and changing events creates a different timeline that splits from the former. Pentadimensional reality, with 3 spatial axis, a temporal one, and another axis for timelines as they split as branches of a tree.

Okay, but:

  • Trunks "A" from History of Trunks left to Timeline B, which was the start of the Android Saga. Then he left and went back to Timeline A.
  • Then he comes back to Timeline B and discovers a way to shut down the Androids. He should be heading back to Timeline A because that's where he left from. When he does he shuts down the Androids of Timeline A, but the Cell of Timeline A kills him.
  • Cell A then should be going back to Timeline B because that's what Trunks had the machine set for. Instead, he travels back in time and creates Timeline C. Why is there a Timeline C?
  • So Cell A is now in Timeline C, having ditched Timeline A because Trunks destroyed those Androids. But the Trunks from Timeline A is still dead. Nothing Cell does after time traveling should have had an effect on Trunks because, IIRC, Cell is still in his larval state and doesn't make his presence known until after the Androids have been released.
    • The sequence of events between Timelines B and C don't link up - apparently Trunks A managed to find the blueprints of Timeline B and go back to Timeline A, unmolested.
    • Yet the Trunks that appeared in Timeline C - the same timeline Cell landed in after killing Trunks A - this version of Trunks found 19's head and realized these weren't the same androids he knew. So he didn't find the blueprints in Timeline C. But why not? In this timeline everything that would have led to Trunks A finding the blueprints still should have happened normally. So it had to be Cell merely existing in Timeline B that changed things and created Timeline C.
      • What did Cell do in Timeline C to allow for there to be another Trunks? He didn't interact with Trunks until Gingertown, which wasn't the reason Trunks stuck around, it was the Androids being awoken and Vegeta picking a fight with them. All of that still should have happened in Timeline B and C, independent of Cell's presence. But instead we have another Trunks who is from Timeline D and returns to Timeline D, safe and sound.
  • Trunks D should still have arrived in Timeline Cwhich mimics the events of Timeline B until Cell comes back), still found the blueprints, and left back to Timeline A''' and been killed by Cell A - who would then go back to Timeline B before Trunks left - but instead the Gero of Timeline C shows up with 19, the Androids awaken 16, and Trunks sticks around longer and doesn't get killed by Cell A (or rather, Cell D). Why? Why didn't Trunks obtain the blueprints in Timeline C? Because the Androids woke up in Timeline C, preventing that. So why weren't they awake in Timeline B?

edited 19th Jul '17 6:59:45 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#61255: Jul 19th 2017 at 6:52:02 PM

Okay. Let's line this up step-by-step.

Androids fuck up Timeline A.

Trunks A goes back in time and creates Timeline B then returns to Timeline A.

Trunks A goes back to Timeline B. The Androids there are killed and Trunks A gets the detonator.

Trunks A goes back to Timeline A and kills the Androids.

Cell A of Timeline A wakes up, realizes this, kills Trunks A, and then goes to Timeline B to a point before Trunks A did.

Cell A's presence in Timeline B creates Timeline C.

Trunks A arrives in Timeline C. This is still Trunks A because the split hasn't happened yet.

The Android Saga goes down except, instead of destroying the Androids like in Timeline B, Cell A shows up. This fully cements Timeline C's status and changes Trunks A to Trunks D and ends up making Trunks D's timeline become Timeline D..

Everything happens as we know it, Cell A is killed, Cell C is killed, Trunks D returns to Timeline D and kills Cell D.

There are four timelines in the Android Saga, not three.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#61256: Jul 19th 2017 at 7:01:09 PM

All of that's spot on, except this bit:

Trunks A arrives in Timeline C. This is still Trunks A because the split hasn't happened yet.

In arriving in a timeline with Cell already in it (Cell first arrives years before Trunks does), Trunks has already become Trunks D even though Cell hasn't directly done anything yet (except create an apparent Time Boom).

I generally put it Timeline 1&2 for the Future timelines, and A&B for the Past timelines, just for clarity's sake.

The most confusing thing Super does to the series' time travel mechanics is not definitively say whether or not divine time travel creates alternate timelines or not. At different points we're told it either does or doesn't - iirc both times by Whis, no less.

edited 19th Jul '17 7:04:41 PM by KnownUnknown

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#61257: Jul 19th 2017 at 7:04:04 PM

Trunks A goes back to Timeline B. The Androids there are killed and Trunks A gets the detonator.

Trunks A goes back to Timeline A and kills the Androids..

Problem. How did he do all of that?

If they couldn't kill them in Timeline A, or Timeline C, then what was different in Timeline B that let Trunks get the detonator?

The Android Saga goes down except, instead of destroying the Androids like in Timeline B, Cell A shows up.

But Cell doesn't show up until after the fact. Nothing Cell does in Timeline C makes it different until after the point Trunks and the others had battled Gero/The Androids in Timeline B. Cell arriving can't have changed anything until he ate Gingertown, but by that point, things were already different.

By that point Trunks and the others should have already encountered/killed the Androids like they apparently did in Timeline B. Trunks would have gotten the detonator, and goes home. Instead, the good guys got their butts kicked and Trunks never got the detonator.

edited 19th Jul '17 7:06:18 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#61258: Jul 19th 2017 at 7:05:21 PM

Problem. How did he do all of that?

Doesn't matter. However they did it, it didn't result in him being strong enough to defeat Imperfect Cell.

But Cell doesn't show up until after the fact. Nothing Cell does in Timeline C makes it different until after the point Trunks and the others had battled Gero/The Androids in Timeline B. Cell arriving can't have changed anything until Gingertown, but by that point, things were already different.

It's not "after the fact," because the androids are still alive and kicking. Cell's plan hinges on going into action during the ongoing battle with the androids.

Again, Cell arrives three years before Trunks does when he fights Freeza, and it's implied (albeit loosely) that either his presence or Trunks - or both - simply by arriving has resulted in things going in slightly different ways.

edited 19th Jul '17 7:09:53 PM by KnownUnknown

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#61259: Jul 19th 2017 at 7:09:57 PM

Trunks A used the detonator on both the Timeline B Androids and the Timeline A Androids; he took the thing back with him after it was made.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#61260: Jul 19th 2017 at 7:11:16 PM

Wait the Future Trunks from Cell's timeline used the detonator to kill the Androids?

He didn't just beat/blast them to death?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#61261: Jul 19th 2017 at 7:12:35 PM

No, otherwise Trunks wouldn't have gotten oneshotted by Imperfect Cell back in Timeline A.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#61262: Jul 19th 2017 at 7:13:28 PM

If you remove Cell from the main timeline, they likely still find the blueprints simce they discussed the possibility. That's where the change comes from, it's Cell being noticed by God and then revealing himself.

edited 19th Jul '17 7:13:59 PM by Saiga

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#61263: Jul 19th 2017 at 7:15:32 PM

...

What inspired them to go to the remains of Gero's lab in the timeline where Cell hadn't come back in time yet?

I mean, they only decided to go back because of Cell saying his pod was in a deeper part of the lab. Without that, they'd have no reason to return there, because they'd have assumed everything was destroyed when Trunks tried to blow 17 and 18 up.

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#61264: Jul 19th 2017 at 7:28:09 PM

  • "Dammit, we can't beat the androids. Let's go scour the destroyed lab, just to see if there's any clues left behind."
  • "Hey! I found a secret passage!"
  • "Hey! I found some secret blueprints."
  • "Hey! What the hell is this fetus looking thing?"

edited 19th Jul '17 7:28:50 PM by KnownUnknown

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#61265: Jul 19th 2017 at 7:30:43 PM

To simplify it:

Timeline 1a: Cell's timeline, where Trunks goes back to the past and doesn't come back significantly stronger.

Timeline 1b: unseen timeline where Trunks warns everyone and the Androids are dealt with without Cell's interference.

Timeline 2a: the timeline of the Future Trunks we know and love.

Timeline 2b: the main timeline.

Timeline 2B: the timeline where Zamasu switches bodies with Goku and kills everyone.

Timeline 2A: the timeline Future Trunks and Future Mai are currently living in.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#61266: Jul 19th 2017 at 7:32:53 PM

So there's still one universe where Zamasu is possibly running amok or at least still alive.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#61267: Jul 19th 2017 at 10:34:51 PM

A new boss mission is being added to Super Dragon Ball Heroes...

You have to fight Broly GOD!

I wonder if this means they're gonna add Broly GOD and SSJB Gokou to the next mission...

edited 19th Jul '17 10:35:07 PM by Rinsankajugin

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#61268: Jul 20th 2017 at 1:05:38 AM

Bring Piccolo and Cell to god tier before the steroids monster, shall we?

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#61269: Jul 20th 2017 at 1:47:46 AM

Nothing much new to say here. We've already talked about Toriyama's desire to subvert what people expected, though it really seems that the reasons he did so were entirely based on his whims at the time. As for whether Goku will ever be satisfied, I'd definitely say that no, he'll always look for someone even stronger to fight, and there will always be someone even stronger to fight as well, because that's how Dragonball rolls. Though as I've said before, for someone who claims to want to subvert audience expectations, he can sure fall into patterns.

Toriyama does fall into the same conventions and plots that he likes to "subvert". As Goku never being satisfied, I think it pretty much a given seeing how Goku likes to fight and endless self improvement is one of Dragon ball themes. One of the most redundant tropes in Dragon Ball is how there will awlays be someone stronger until Goku ends up surpassing them and they become one of his rivals......until the next stronger guy.

"Mai waifu."
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#61270: Jul 20th 2017 at 1:54:20 AM

[up][up] Well, the Namekian Avatars from Heroes have the Red-Eye transformation and Genome (the purple bio-android avatar) has a god form that makes his entire body red.

Maybe Piccolo and Cell will get their time in the limelight one day...

edited 20th Jul '17 1:54:47 AM by Rinsankajugin

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#61271: Jul 20th 2017 at 1:55:38 AM

[up][up][up] hmmm... no, I don't think either of them should get it either

at least Broly is enough of a joke not to matter when this stuff happens

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#61272: Jul 20th 2017 at 2:16:54 AM

Now that I think about it, if Cell went godly, would he be red like Genome, blue like Goku or golden like Frieza?

Or maybe a combination/rainbowish exoskeleton...

EDIT: And the trailer for the Super DBH Broly GOD mission just dropped:

Also, info on episode 101 just dropped too!

Kale isn't ringed out by Jiren in episode 100, and both her and Caulifla help Goku fight off some Pride Troopers!

edited 20th Jul '17 2:35:21 AM by Rinsankajugin

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#61273: Jul 20th 2017 at 3:53:53 AM

If Cell became goldly, he would be much stronger than other Z fighters barring the Angels and Zen'o.

"Mai waifu."
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#61274: Jul 20th 2017 at 3:54:49 AM

The Tournament of Power (and Jiren) in a nutshell.

edited 20th Jul '17 4:07:11 AM by Hobgoblin

Demetrios Making darkness adorable since 1999 from Des Plaines, Illinois (unfortunately) Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Making darkness adorable since 1999
#61275: Jul 20th 2017 at 6:57:15 AM

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