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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#60776: Jul 12th 2017 at 4:52:55 PM

The anime's version of that arc was definitely better since Goku effectively kicked off Zamasu's Start of Darkness in a very believably Goku way and the first half of the arc was dedicated to solving the mystery of who Black is and what his connection to Zamasu is. The manga just completely failed to deliver a compelling story on either of those fronts, having both of those plot points be hand waved away through Zamasu just seeing a guy on GodTube and a new character just telling everyone who Black is.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#60777: Jul 12th 2017 at 4:54:03 PM

I mean, Kaioken plus Blue sounds pretty cool to me. The Spirit Sword bit sounds like it has other issues that aren't being an obvious nostalgia throwback (which I don't get, honestly).

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#60778: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:01:04 PM

[up][up] It makes no sense how Goku caused the start of darkness when Goku only meets Zamasu because of Black.

I'd prefer Goku to meet Zamasu without it being caused by Black. I'll take Zamasu being corrupted without Black being involved.

[up] it's just a recreation of the Boo arc spirit sword scene. It's not a big deal, but it's lame in otself and just makes things feel like nostalgia pandering rather than a true continuation.

SSB Kaio-ken is an issue for power scaling, has the same nostalgia pandering feel and has not been used competently since then.

edited 12th Jul '17 5:03:47 PM by Saiga

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#60779: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:09:26 PM

(which I don't get, honestly).

I mean, what's to get? We wouldn't be watching this show if not for nostalgia.

  • The animation was reportedly god-awful in the beginning and didn't improve significantly for at least two arcs, arguably three.
  • There's a couple of episodes that are blatant filler.
  • The plot and characters aren't winning any awards for phenomenal storytelling/character development.
  • The first two arcs were just retreads of two far superior films.
  • The main character suffers from a severe case of Idiot Ball and Flanderization.
  • Most of the plot relies on you having watched the earlier series and there's pretty much no recap for new fans - which menas you either sit through 200 something episodes, 190-something chapters, or 100-something Kai episodes to catch up, or read the plot on Wikipedia.

All of that typically spells "this show is not for me" in any other circumstance. But even the people who dislike everything about Super are watching it because they liked Dragonball, or Dragonball Z. On some basic level nostalgia is driving everyone to watch this show.

But it's not just the nostalgia.

Forget the nostalgia even. It's emotionally satisfying when Zamasu - who's used his energy sword to mortally wound Vegeta and as his main weapon for a good portion of the arc, and has more or less been a Smug Snake for most of the arc - ends up getting skewered with it at just the right moment by the guy who first showed us the technique years earlier. I mean yeah it fails because Zamasu's still immortal, but it's still cool.

Even if you ignore the nostalgic aspect of Vegito being the one to turn Zamasu's technique against him, it's the ultimate middle finger.

edited 12th Jul '17 5:28:22 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#60780: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:12:10 PM

ah yes, because endless throwbacks to the past and pale imitations are so great

I did dig the Father/Son Galick Gun from the Goku Black arc admittedly. tongue

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#60782: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:13:29 PM

I only actually started watching Super very recently. I more or less kept up with what was going on with it with this thread, and it did not impress me. Now I'm just watching it on Toonami because why not, and the latest episodes because I'm genuinely curious about how the current situation is resolved.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#60783: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:15:49 PM

Future Trunks' Final Flash was also pretty weak though it didn't help that he barely charged it up & Future Zamasu had indestructibility (Meaning no gore).

edited 12th Jul '17 5:16:08 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#60784: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:18:10 PM

[up][up][up] Why you gotta sink our ship like that bro? tongue

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#60785: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:19:35 PM

SSB Kaio-ken is an issue for power scaling, has the same nostalgia pandering feel and has not been used competently since then.

Yes, because Goku's Completed Super Saiyan Blue being able to stand up to Fused Zamas in the manga isn't causing the exact same problem.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#60786: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:23:44 PM

Yeah, obviously Vegetto using the Spirit Sword was just pandering to nostalgia.

It's not like the person he impaled using an energy sword spent the entire arc impaling everyone with an energy sword or anything. If that were true, it'd be a really cool moment of turnabout while also being a callback as precedent for the moment, but Saiga can't possibly be wrong.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#60787: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:25:05 PM

That's funny

Once again I wasn't specifically talking about the manga

It's like the anime can't be defended on its own merits

Anyway, mangawise Merged Zamasu was clearly much weaker than Vegetto, and doesn't appear to be absurdly powerful from his other fights with Goku/Vegeta so I don't think Goku is too powerful right now. I don't like that Zamasu isn't that impressive and I feel both mediums really downplayed the difference in power potara should have, but I don't think that's such an issue going forward.

[up] The manga's never had such a big emphasis on repeated technique usage. Vegetto's sword beam was just a one-off thing he did originally.

Besides, Zamasu having a similar technique doesn't mean Vegetto has to bring out the old move - especially not using it in the same damn way. I'm not seeing the turnabout in it, it's just a technique. No big deal, nothing special about it.

edited 12th Jul '17 5:27:49 PM by Saiga

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#60788: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:26:11 PM

Wait why would anyone be complaining about the Spirit Sword? Its Vegitio's most iconic attack, serving as his Ultimate Movie in most video games & he used against someone who uses Ki Blades while smugly saying "Bitch I cam up with that first".

Its awesome poetic justice in its entirety.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#60789: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:27:10 PM

It makes no sense how Goku caused the start of darkness when Goku only meets Zamasu because of Black.

Stable Time Loop my friend. Becoming aware of something from the future causes it to happen in the past. Happens all the time in time travel stories.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#60790: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:28:33 PM

But explicitly does not happen in Dragon Ball and makes less sence than the version we originally had.

[up][up] less complaining and more never finding it very significant to begin with. It's used in video games because it's unique (and Vegetto didn't use much else). It just adds to the very obvious trend of Toei having characters to continue using iconic 'signature' moves in a way that the manga didn't.

edited 12th Jul '17 5:31:06 PM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#60791: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:30:42 PM

Of course Vegetto's technique was a one-off. Vegetto was a one-off, until he came back in Super. Why wouldn't his only unique attack also come back?

edited 12th Jul '17 5:31:37 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#60792: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:32:06 PM

Because that is the norm for attacks in the manga. Most techniques are one-offs, even the named ones.

If the potrayal were consistent with the original, then there'd be no reason to expect the technique to return.

edited 12th Jul '17 5:33:48 PM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#60793: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:32:49 PM

The Kamehameha, Spirit Bomb, Kienzan, Kikoho, etc. laugh at that assertion.

edited 12th Jul '17 5:34:37 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#60794: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:34:16 PM

Also Solar Flare, Final Flash, Spirit Bomb, Galick Gun, Tri-Beam & the Destructo Disk to name a few.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#60795: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:35:13 PM

No it doesn't

Because "most" does not mean "all"

Comparing Vegetto's unnamed sword to the Kamehameha is laughable. It's closer to the Hellzone Grenade, Final Flash, Trunks' moves, etc

[up] Galick Gun and Final Flash are used once in the manga...

edited 12th Jul '17 5:36:17 PM by Saiga

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#60796: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:37:21 PM

Also, what in Zen-Oh's name are you talking about, God Zamas was absolutely a threat; the fact they decided they needed to use Vegerot at all kind of proves that. The fact that Vegerot went directly to Super Saiyan Blue instead of just using Super Saiyan God, which we know Manga!Vegerot can obviously use, kind of implies that they thought that even Super Saiyan God Vegerot wouldn't have been enough to outmatch God Zamas.

And yes, I'm using the Viz spelling just to fuck with people. tongue

edited 12th Jul '17 5:37:45 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#60797: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:38:12 PM

Vegeta only ever uses his moves once. Ten always uses the same moves. Trunks never actually names his moves Different standards for different characters.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#60798: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:40:36 PM

No, Ten has more one-offs than recurring moves as well. Most characters are full of one-offs, even among their named moves. Or they'll use a move a couple of times in a single arc/fight and the move will disappear.

[up] i didn't say he wasn't a threat. But he's not in the same tier as Vegetto, and doesn't feel impossibly strong next to the heroes.

edited 12th Jul '17 5:41:38 PM by Saiga

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#60799: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:40:58 PM

Mostly because Vegeta is always coming up with new moves.

Also, I love how you're not bringing up the fact that the manga version also brings back old moves, since we have Vegeta using Trunks' Heat Dome Attack/Buster Cannon in his "fight" with Beerus, and we saw him use the move that he used to kill Nappa against Cabba in the manga version of that fight.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#60800: Jul 12th 2017 at 5:43:14 PM

I'm not bringing it up because i was talking about Toei in regards to the original manga.

Toyotarou also references old scenes, though in a different way, and brings back old techniques. Not a fan of that either. At least he does so less often and explains things like Taiyo-ken.


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