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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#60676: Jul 9th 2017 at 5:35:54 PM

It helps that the character designs for the various teams are fantastic, as well as that the character animation and dialogue for the U9 fighters was great, really humanizing them in such a short amount of screentime. The little bunny girl already has a fanbase post-mortem, despite having less than a minute of total screentime, just because she was cute and quirky with a great design.

Not to mention that they're avoiding just making the fighters evil, which was a thought of mine; that U9 was so desperate that they scraped together a team by recruiting a bunch of villains. By not having these fighters be bad people, they're emphasising that they're fighting to survive and save everyone they know and love and they didn't deserve this fate.

The heaviest part is that the Universe's destructions are going to be spaced throughout the tournament. For every 1-3 episodes of awesome battle royal action, we're getting 1 episode where an entire universe of innocent people is erased from existence, including all the fighters and gods from that universe in the tournament. The sheer enormity and repetitiousness of such a horrendous act is going to be devastating over the long-term.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#60677: Jul 9th 2017 at 5:46:10 PM

Because, it ultimately leads to the problem of why you would design all of these characters, if you're just going to kill 90% of them off in the same arc they're introduced in.

Toriyama has done that before, going to the trouble of designing characters who were there just to be beat up by Goku.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#60678: Jul 9th 2017 at 5:48:32 PM

Universe 9's strategy was pretty bad, all things considered. Teamwork is fine and all, but actively trying to fight strong foes is pretty moronic in a battle royale, when they could have just waited and lie low until the stronger foes knock out each other or otherwise too tired to fight.

ComicX6 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#60679: Jul 9th 2017 at 6:29:57 PM

The smart thing to do would be to secretly convince each team during the fight to purposely hold back so that each universe will have one fighter left on stage by the end, concluding things in a draw. But most Dragon Ball characters have fists for brains and no one's going to listen to Universe 7 but now anyway so so much for that. Or I guess the Omni-King or more likely the Grand Priest would flag everyone for sandbagging and force a sudden death round if that happened.

My Megaman and MegaTen RPG Liveblogs
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#60680: Jul 9th 2017 at 6:38:51 PM

Except you also had Roshi and King Kai say that Goku just found a way to use Super Saiyan God on his own, before having Goku himself explain it as basically having the power of Super Saiyan God in your base state and then going Super Saiyan on top of that; basically going Super Saiyan as a Super Saiyan God. Which in and of itself doesn't really flow with how it was originally described in the original dub, as simply "a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan;" this makes it sound like it could be either a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God going Super Saiyan, or as a Saiyan who has the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan, basically making Super Saiyan a conduit for the godly power.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#60681: Jul 9th 2017 at 6:41:52 PM

[up][up] you say they have fists for brains but I guess you haven't heard of a prisoner's dilemna

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#60682: Jul 9th 2017 at 6:57:34 PM

That fucking dub explanation is the funniest thing I've heard all day.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#60683: Jul 9th 2017 at 7:15:07 PM

What do you mean? Black only used two forms the entire time: Saiyan Beyond God, which was slightly stronger than Super Saiyan 3, and Super Saiyan Rose, which is just Super Saiyan 1 combined with Saiyan Beyond God, same as Super Saiyan Blue, except it looked different because of Zamasu's soul.

If anything, the manga's approach of having Black be as strong as he is, then having Super Saiyan 1 and Super Saiyan Rose on top of that as separate forms and tiers of power is just utter nonsense.

I wasn't talking about the manga.

For the anime, even if you assume base Black is just sandbagging when he gets beaten up by opponents that should be weaker than "Saiyan Beyond God" you still have things like base Black being able to overpower Blue Vegeta before he went Rose, and Rose Black struggling against pre-rage Trunks, etc

Toei are inconsistent enough with their power levels to account for Black's weirdness. To assume a placeholder transformation from Heroes still applies to Super is too much of a stretch to be proven, and it is never acknowledged within the show.

The 'two base theory' is just too unlikely to fit when the show doesn't explicitly use such a concept.

Black using Super Saiyan came from Toriyama's notes, so it doesn't look like he was envisioned as having a SBG state.

Frankly, I think that was what Toriyama had originally planned in ROF, but when he went on to create outlines for Super he decided to bring the old forms back and there isn't an in-universe explanation for the inconsistencies.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#60684: Jul 9th 2017 at 9:05:27 PM

The dub dialogue really does make up for Super's earlier poor animations at least lol.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#60685: Jul 9th 2017 at 9:14:41 PM

Going back to the universal erasure, I don't get why Beerus was all surprised by the Omni-kings doing it. He already knows about the other six universes he destroyed, and that was apparently just because of temper tantrum. This entire thing (ostensibly) has a point.

But, yeah, beyond this most likely not being permanent, I don't see this having a big big emotional impact on me.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#60686: Jul 9th 2017 at 9:39:11 PM

Apathy to the multi-verse...

Affirmative.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#60687: Jul 9th 2017 at 10:20:03 PM

In regards to all this confusion over Blue, I'd like to point out that the form's original name was Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan for a reason.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#60688: Jul 9th 2017 at 10:21:20 PM

That can be taken two ways though; Super Saiyan God going Super Saiyan or a Super Saiyan God version of Super Saiyan.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#60689: Jul 9th 2017 at 10:22:35 PM

Both of those mean pretty much the exact same thing so it doesn't really matter.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#60690: Jul 9th 2017 at 10:23:30 PM

Ok the fact that something literally called "Super Saiyan God" has a Super Saiyan form just sounds illogical.

There's something wrong with that logic, I'm just not sure what.

[up] Its just pure redundancy at this point.

edited 9th Jul '17 10:24:10 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#60691: Jul 9th 2017 at 10:25:38 PM

Super Saiyan 2 is basically just Super Saiyan Super Saiyan. There's nothing illogical about it, it's just that the name sounds weird. That's why the name was changed to Super Saiyan Blue pretty quickly.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#60692: Jul 9th 2017 at 10:26:04 PM

Mojita being annoyed at them not being able to form a team seems kind of weird if he's happy about this.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#60693: Jul 9th 2017 at 10:27:32 PM

I guess that's my main problem with it, the original name was stupid & the explanation at least given by Goku is head-turning.

Hell Blue is better cause even if it turns the Super Saiyan transformation into Power Rangers at least its simple & straigt to the point.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#60694: Jul 9th 2017 at 10:32:05 PM

[up][up]That could be interpreted at him just being annoyed at them in general.

edited 9th Jul '17 10:32:25 PM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.
RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#60695: Jul 10th 2017 at 1:22:02 AM

I am half-expecting Frieza to be recruited by the angels are part of their evil plan. He helps them out, and in turn gets protection from his many, many enemies along with a possible position of power

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#60696: Jul 10th 2017 at 2:24:14 AM

Both of those mean pretty much the exact same thing so it doesn't really matter.

Well, no. "This is a Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" would mean the form is Super Saiyan, but the power behind it comes from Super Saiyan God. In other words, using Super Saiyan in order to manifest Super Saiyan God's power. A Super Saiyan God that has gone Super Saiyan implies something substantially more powerful, and Goku doesn't appear to be significantly stronger in ROF since he's still inferior to Beerus.

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#60697: Jul 10th 2017 at 3:50:19 AM

That's because SSJB is neither "SSJ with the power of SSJG" or "the SSJ of SSJG". The way I see it, Super Saiyan has a multiple paths of evolution, but only 1 true path.

For years we've been taught that it was "SSJ > SSJ2 > SSJ3" with Ascended forms, Legendary and SSJ4 being off-shoots. Now that Super's been a thing for a couple of years now, it threw our perception of Super Saiyan out the window! Analyzing DBS for a while now, I believe that the following evolution line is the TRUE one for Super Saiyan:

Super Saiyan > Super Saiyan 2 > Super Saiyan Rage > Super Saiyan Blue

Yes, I believe that Super Saiyan 3 is an off-shoot form and not a true evolution of Super Saiyan 2. First off, Goku achieved the form while training for 7 years in the afterlife. Much like the Hyperbolic Time Chamber training, it gave him enough time to manipulate SSJ beyond the brink, this time without the loss of stamina since he was already dead, but SSJ3 was NOT achieved through rage like the previous forms. Super Saiyan Rage WAS achieved through rage past SSJ2, which should make it the Super Saiyan of Super Saiyan 2. And if you remember, Rage has a slightly blue aura, just like SSJB.

If you're wondering where Super Saiyan God is, I believe that it's an off-shoot form, but one that is somewhat important like Full Power SSJ. The form introduced us to the level of godhood that Blue also has, and while God isn't as powerful as Blue, it does have it's unique self-regen ability that makes it seem less a Super Saiyan form and more of a Godly form.

Now back to the SSJ evolution, I believe that Rage leads into Blue due to it having some traces of godly ki in it's aura. Through enough training, a Saiyan could theoretically gain god ki without the need of a ritual (AKA Vegeta), and Rage seems like the last key before reach godhood without 5 other Saiyans. Remember, Blue is supposed to be the form of a calm ki, which is the opposite of 1, 2 and Rage's breaking points. I guess Vegeta skipped Rage because he just wants to get ahead of Goku and his God form.

Super Saiyan 1, 2 and Rage are the results of a furious emotion and Blue is the gift of nirvana that is rewarded to any Saiyan who reaches that level. Super Saiyan God is a similar form to Blue, but instead of training and rage it is obtained by ritual, which is why the form is super magical yet not as strong as Blue. God is pretty much pure God Ki, while Blue is the Super Saiyan made with God Ki.

At least, that's what I got from watching DBS for the last few years. tongue

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#60698: Jul 10th 2017 at 4:01:25 AM

I mean. I still don't think it's entirely clear whether the Super Saiyan multiplier affects the base natural ki or the godly ki or both, or how separate the two ki are.

Like, Krillin and the others could sense Goku before Super Saiyan Blue but not after, so even when Goku's in Saiyan Beyond God he apparently isn't in full Godly Ki mode or whatever.

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#60699: Jul 10th 2017 at 5:04:54 AM

Man, watching Goku and Vegeta toss the U9 guys off the ring so easily made it easy to forget that those two are heroes.

Also, maybe it's obvious, but people are making jokes about how Toei decided the furry universe is the first to go down.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#60700: Jul 10th 2017 at 9:09:29 AM

A Super Saiyan God that has gone Super Saiyan implies something substantially more powerful, and Goku doesn't appear to be significantly stronger in ROF since he's still inferior to Beerus.

Well, as far as the anime goes, since they removed the bit about Beerus using 70% of his power against Goku, they very well could have changed the mechanics of Super Saiyan Blue as well. Considering that Super seems to be going for "Goku/Vegeta get ridiculously stronger but still fall short of Beerus". I wouldn't be surprised. Obviously, that doesn't mean this is actually what's happening though.


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