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Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#60401: Jul 6th 2017 at 10:02:58 AM

Roshi did get those leaves which give him his immortality and seemingly power. Krillin has been going toe to toe training vs 18 so he had to have gotten a lot better.

Tien however not really.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#60402: Jul 6th 2017 at 10:09:37 AM

Tien could always get those God powers that third eye of his is supposed to get him.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#60403: Jul 6th 2017 at 10:15:14 AM

Why would having a third eye give him godlike powers? Any more so than Krillin's lack of a nose, I mean.

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#60404: Jul 6th 2017 at 10:18:06 AM

Tien became a Super Human. He stopped being a slacker and tried enough.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#60405: Jul 6th 2017 at 10:22:45 AM

[up][up] Its something from an old interview where Toriyama said that Tien should have gained some major enlightenment superpowers cause of his third eye but couldn't due to his inner darkness or some shit like that.

It was an old interview though.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#60406: Jul 6th 2017 at 11:09:44 AM

Then I'd expect it to be forgotten.

Also, being able to fight 18 in training in no way means he's now as strong as she is. No human can get that strong (he topped out at 75,000 I think post Namek).

It's been shown time and time again that no matter how hard the humans train, they are never anywhere near strong enough to be a factor in the battles. Their techniques are useless, and only the saiyans have both the power and skill to stand up to enemies.

I don't care though. I just want good fights with people besides Goku, and that's what this tournament is gonna give. I'm not gonna pretend it makes sense though.

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TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#60407: Jul 6th 2017 at 11:26:15 AM

No human can get that strong (he topped out at 75,000 I think post Namek).

What about Uub and Olibu?

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#60408: Jul 6th 2017 at 11:38:35 AM

No living human who's not the reincarnation of an Eldritch Abomination that is.

Also, Olibu ain't even canon. He's kinda cool, but not canon.

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#60409: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:28:16 PM

Sorry, Rob, but Krillin beating base Gohan and pushing Goku to use Super Saiyan disproves what you know about the series. Just do what I do: accept that Dragon Ball's always been arbitrary with its power-ups, and just take everything nowadays at face value as fact.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#60410: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:30:16 PM

Those two things are inherently contradictory.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#60411: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:32:13 PM

Or, ya know, acknowledge that Dragon Ball has actually been really consistent with its power ups, for the most part, and just accept that Super is trash.

Also, Krillin didn't top out at 75k, that was simply the last time we got a number for him and anybody else.

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#60412: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:34:27 PM

Nothing is trash...so no acceptance.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#60413: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:36:51 PM

[up][up]

Well, he's supposed to be stronger than all the members of the Ginyu force sans Ginyu himself now right? So his power level is whatever the rest of them were but higher.

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#60414: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:47:02 PM

Not inherently contradictory. Dragon Ball's power-ups have always been arbitrary, so why get mad when that trend continues? How are Yamcha, Krillin, and Tenshinhan always able to keep up with Goku's gains from tournament to tournament, despite having much worse training than him?

The answer is simple: the Humans have always been in the same general league of power as Goku (well, base Goku nowadays) and they always will be in that same league of power. There's no explanation necessary beyond that. They keep up because the plot says they do, and nothing more, and that's okay.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#60415: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:50:20 PM

They answer is they weren't able to, and Goku was just sandbagging whenever he fought them or someone else to enjoy the fight more, because that's Goku.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#60416: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:51:06 PM

[up][up]Actually no, they haven't.

Goku has always been leagues ahead of them (with the exception of his first fight with Tien, where they were more or less equal).

Though they did grow much stronger than he did after 1 year of training with Kami, it was still leagues behind how strong Goku got when he came back to life.

Only Tien and Piccolo were ever in his league when they fought him, and he quickly left them behind as well.

Now I want the humans to be useful as much as you do, but it's hardwired into the series that they are thousands of years behind, and no amount of bullshit training is gonna change that.

But like I said, if that's how Super is gonna roll with things, I'l take it.

Edit: [up] This pretty much. It's especially evident in his second fight with Tien at the 23 Budokai. The latter was busting a lung from exertion, while the former wasn't even winded when all was said and done.

Goku's kinda a dick that way, in that he purposely holds back to make the fight more interesting, but in a way, he's rubbing in his superiority without really meaning to.

edited 6th Jul '17 12:53:12 PM by HandsomeRob

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#60417: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:52:50 PM

[up]x3 Except they never have. Krillin was significantly weaker than Goku from the start and the gap between him and Goku just got wider and wider as time went on. Tenshinhan was a match for Goku only at the 22nd Budoukai but was quickly outpaced by a large margin in the very next saga. Yamcha could only evenly fight a hungry Goku and was never even close to a match otherwise.

People complain about the humans being useless in Z (they aren't but whatever) but they've always been useless in fights since the very beginning. Outside of one instance with Roshi and one with Tenshinhan, Goku was always stronger than the humans by a very large margin.

[nja]'d

edited 6th Jul '17 12:53:10 PM by Zelenal

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#60418: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:58:24 PM

I'm not saying they've kept up with him. I'm saying they've kept up with his gains. They're always the same amount weaker than him, despite Goku having more intense training than they did.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#60419: Jul 6th 2017 at 12:59:57 PM

[up]

Honestly, I'm not even sure if that is true.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#60420: Jul 6th 2017 at 1:01:10 PM

In what way were they always the same amount weaker? The gap between them was always getting wider.

edited 6th Jul '17 1:01:38 PM by LSBK

TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#60421: Jul 6th 2017 at 1:06:52 PM

People complain about the humans being useless in Z (they aren't but whatever)

...shit, I was going to ask you to elaborate, but now that I think about it, you're right. Krillin, Mr. Satan, Bulma, Dr. Briefs, and you could argue Tien all contributed to the plot in some meaningful way at least once during Z's run.

Outside of one instance with Roshi and one with Tenshinhan

And Mercenary Tao.

And Nam, I think.

edited 6th Jul '17 1:14:48 PM by TyeDyeWildebeest

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MonsieurThenardier Searching from Murika Since: Nov, 2016 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Searching
#60422: Jul 6th 2017 at 1:12:40 PM

Vegeta become a dad well after his introduction, after he had been fleshed out a lot more from his original design - and he has never been compared to General Zod by Toriyama, who hasn't shown that much of an understanding of Superman.
Zod was probably Superman's most well known villain in the 80s owing to Superman II, and Vegeta is basically identical to him in backstory and personality minus the convict angle.

"It is very easy to be kind; the difficulty lies in being just."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#60423: Jul 6th 2017 at 1:13:54 PM

Sorry. I'm already tired of this argument, partially because I lose investment in things in less than an hour after they start, and partially because we've had this argument before. I'm not changing my opinion, I love Super, and I'm really happy that the Humans are relevant power-wise to the story, even if I think the method to get them there was a little lazy.

It just seems blatantly wrong when I see people saying that Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Roshi are as weak as they think they should be, and not as strong as the current story arc has gone out of its way to portray them being. Facts are facts. Right now, Krillin is almost as strong as 18, and I don't really care how that happened.

I am filthy Power Level communist, the closer all the major characters are to each other in strength, the more I like the story.

edited 6th Jul '17 1:19:37 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#60424: Jul 6th 2017 at 1:14:38 PM

[up]X3

This is true. Even Yamcha had the time he stopped Oozaru Goku from running amok, though I imagine I'll only get laughs for daring to claim Yamcha was ever useful. It's really easy to forget that fighting isn't the only way people can contribute to the plot.

I suppose it's just frustrating (for me at least) that while they can contribute to the plot outside of fighting, despite being skills martial artists, they can't do jack when it comes to fighting except establish that Goku is the only one who can save the day.

The only one who came close to changing that was Gohan, and even then, it was just trading one for the other without anything else really changing.

Speaking of Gohan, if he gets a good fight, who do you guys want him to go up against? I want to see the extent of his powers now that he's back up to Buu level and all that.

edited 6th Jul '17 1:14:57 PM by HandsomeRob

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#60425: Jul 6th 2017 at 1:16:36 PM

I'd like to point out that holding the line for Goku is important. A lot of things would have changed if the others were unable to do that. Also, in the case of Vegeta, everyone would have died if Krillin and Yajirobe weren't there.

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