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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#58926: Jun 17th 2017 at 12:52:14 PM

I can buy Whis teaching it to Goku at some point during training.

edited 17th Jun '17 12:52:31 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#58927: Jun 17th 2017 at 1:00:27 PM

Like, the only problem I had with Trunks` spirit sword and power ups in the Anime is that they're literally treated like Big Lipped Alligator Moments. They're never referenced or elaborated on and there are no consequences either. It's literally just...there.

And hey look at that, we have actual fucking battle damage

edited 17th Jun '17 1:01:14 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#58928: Jun 17th 2017 at 1:00:49 PM

For the record, I still maintain that this Saga is bad regardless of medium. I'm just expressing my allowance to like something from the manga like most people like something from the anime

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#58929: Jun 17th 2017 at 1:01:55 PM

Honestly, this saga seems no worse than other arcs in the franchise...or at least excessively so.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#58930: Jun 17th 2017 at 1:05:07 PM

Whaaat?! Nah their fine.

Its the modern stuff that has the issues.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#58931: Jun 17th 2017 at 1:18:25 PM

Man, I can list every single problem with the Android and Buu sagas. Don't let them nostalgia goggles blind you.

I'd say the series was pretty consistent with itself until after Freeza, which makes sense because everything up to Freeza had something of a connection.

edited 17th Jun '17 1:19:07 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#58932: Jun 17th 2017 at 1:23:47 PM

Dragon Ball always had problems, but I don't think they were nearly as bad as Super's. Toriyama may have wrote by the seat of his pants but he kept things much more consistent and grounded in its own logic, than at least, the Super anime does.

edited 17th Jun '17 1:39:08 PM by LSBK

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#58933: Jun 17th 2017 at 1:27:12 PM

I agree with that. I just don't think that should excuse the Manga's own issues and that people treat it as some pinnacle of storytelling that Super fails to live up to. Super does have many issues, but I don't feel like they're that big to the point of being an "inferior" follow up to the series.

But that's only my opinion, there are plenty of people who denounce Super as a poor follow up to the series overall.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#58934: Jun 17th 2017 at 1:28:35 PM

Goku knowing how to Hakai...

If they explain it, I'll deal with it, even though it seems like something that should be purely unique to Gods of Destruction.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#58935: Jun 17th 2017 at 1:29:14 PM

Wasn't it explained that it's mostly a God Ki related ability?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#58936: Jun 17th 2017 at 1:30:24 PM

I'll give ya the Buu Saga, that's where the issues became more prevalent.

Also I found this little snippet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSEo1DPr7KE

Damn now that's epic how Goku pretty much made Ice his bitch & going full papa wolf for harming his family. Now GT had its problems but its these moments that it did pretty well.

As well it showed me the origin of this particular piece of fan-art.

Edit: Ah shit I can't post it. Well its the one where a Golden furred SS 4 Goku is doing the thing he's doing to Ice with Beerus instead looking like the cats about to piss his pants.

edited 17th Jun '17 1:31:55 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#58937: Jun 17th 2017 at 1:37:48 PM

I can't speak to whether the Super manga is better than the anime or not.

Envyus Since: Jun, 2011
#58938: Jun 17th 2017 at 1:52:12 PM

Should point out in the manga. Goku never even saw Hakai being preformed.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#58940: Jun 17th 2017 at 2:06:17 PM

It is indeed true.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#58941: Jun 17th 2017 at 2:08:22 PM

Huh so unless its explained how he learned the attack its a plot-hole.

Do they explain it?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#58942: Jun 17th 2017 at 2:13:35 PM

We don't know because the chapter isn't out yet. These are just snippets from the leaked spoilers.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#58943: Jun 17th 2017 at 2:17:24 PM

[up] Ah alright.

Also here's the finale of the Ice fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwKQKf6of7Q

Man even when blinded you can't keep Goku down. Just punch a hole through the mothafucker.

Huh how many times has he used Dragon Fist in GT cause he uses it a good amount of times?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#58944: Jun 17th 2017 at 2:23:45 PM

Mind you I'm not expecting any more of an explanation that the one the anime provided for the Future Spirit Sword of Friendship, Light, and Rage. Goku's Hakai is just the manga equivalent of a move that set's up Fusion Zamasu's final gambit.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#58945: Jun 17th 2017 at 2:29:39 PM

Though in this case, his final gambit is just making multiples of his merged self, instead of merging with all of reality at the cost of his individuality and sense of self.

edited 17th Jun '17 2:29:57 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#58946: Jun 17th 2017 at 2:34:53 PM

https://imgur.com/R8vZX1r

Fusion Zamasu melting into goo was in the outline.

Vegeta's new Gamma Burst Flash blows up 2 Fusion Zamasu.

edited 17th Jun '17 2:35:09 PM by VeryMelon

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#58947: Jun 17th 2017 at 2:38:07 PM

That's a cool name.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#58948: Jun 17th 2017 at 2:53:36 PM

Goku knowing Hakai first struck me as odd, but it is an opportunity to learn more about it. It could be something Whis taught Goku, or something that Goku picked up instinctually as he becomes more of a god.

I also like that it's not some instant-win technique either, because some people thought Beerus' Hakai would let him destroy anyone. It still might be too powerful for Goku to have in the future, but at the very least it won't be an issue in the next arc because Goku can't kill his opponents.

Getting bored of this arc by now, though. Maybe because we've now seen the manga's take on everything and I expect this to now be pretty similar to the anime until the end (Zeno coming in etc) which will still take a while due to the monthly schedule.

As for comparing Super and the original series, I agree with LSBK that even with the original's flaws it isn't the same as Super. I too can find plenty to criticize in the Android and Boo arcs - and I can do this with Namek and early parts of the series as well - but it's still more consistent and enjoyable than either medium of Super is.

So I wouldn't say that the Black arc is no worse than other arcs in the franchise, it's got some cool ideas but is hit with Super's general oddities and really deteriorates further into the arc.

I did like Zamasu and Black as characters. Toriyama showed that he can still take extremely fanfic concepts like Evil Goku and Future Trunks returning and make them more palatable, so I do think the arc had potential to be really good even though the initial premise sounds bad. But it really didn't live up to that, and Toriyama's writing is not as enjoyable here.

So I wouldn't call the manga some pinnacle of story telling. It just looks that way when Super is so below it.

edited 17th Jun '17 2:56:18 PM by Saiga

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#58949: Jun 17th 2017 at 2:58:08 PM

I'm split about Goku knowing Hakai. On the one hand, I've been waiting for ages for them to introduce some kind of concept that makes having divine level power exceptional, beyond being stronger than the newest bad guy and such. Some kind of divine superpower or perk that people with mortal ki could never achieve no matter how strong they got. On the other hand, I feel like Hakai itself was set up as a function of Beerus' position, and it beaing simple technique to be copied like Goku always does might actually pull the opposite way and diminish its weight as a godly ability.

But meh, it makes for a cool action scene either way.

edited 17th Jun '17 2:59:29 PM by KnownUnknown

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#58950: Jun 17th 2017 at 3:07:26 PM

I agree with that. Just some extra expansion on the ability and what it means would be nice. I definitely would rather it tied Beerus' position like some of the other godly abilities are.

My idea for how Godly ki could be made more special was that it could protect someone from being Hakai'd (and possibly other godly effects) so Beerus couldn't just do that to God Goku. I guess then he'd have to destroy Zamasu the normal way, unless Zamasu isn't enough of a God to be safe.


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