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BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#5776: Mar 18th 2014 at 2:50:16 PM

[up]WE MUST GATHER OUR POSITIVE ENERGY TO DEFEAT THE SHADOW DRAGONS.

Back on topic, though... did anyone else play Dragon Ball Online before the server takedown?

edited 18th Mar '14 2:51:23 PM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
RedM Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
#5777: Mar 18th 2014 at 2:58:42 PM

The Cell Saga had some great moments, (Vegeta's Final Flash, Trunks beating Freeza and Cold, Gohan's SSJ 2 transformation,) but yeah, on the whole I thought it was easily the weakest part of the series.

The very best, like no one ever was. Check out my Spider-Man fanfic here! [1]
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5778: Mar 18th 2014 at 3:54:20 PM

[up] Hate to add the grilling that the Cell Arc is getting right now, but I gotta agree with whats being said right now. Tobias Drake beautifully summed most of my issues with the Cell Arc but my issue with Cell Arc come from the fact that it was essentially an Idiot Plot. I mean seriously, how many times did the Z-Fighters or the Androids switch off their brains during that arc. Some of the decisions they made were ridiculously dumb.

The Cell Arc only make me enjoy the King Piccolo Arc and the Majin Buu Arc even more, both of which I consider the best arcs in all of Dragon Ball. Because in those arcs, the heroes and villains were way more savvy and creative. Granted the characters did some dumb things at times during those arcs but it was nowhere near as bad or consistent as the Cell Arc.

[up][up] God, Dragon Ball Online was an immensely wasted opportunity. Add a few more RPG style gameplay elements, a more detailed plot and make the game available outside of Asia and it could have been a huge hit. And I'll be honest, if Dragon Ball Online was available in Europe, I would have played the hell out of it. But the developers and publishers didn't think that the game would do well in other countries and kept it in Asia, where it slowly died a painful death and faded into obscurity. *sigh* C'est la vie...

edited 18th Mar '14 5:27:08 PM by FireShadow

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#5779: Mar 18th 2014 at 3:59:54 PM

The two main genres Dragon Ball games are good with are fighters and RPG's. Now, I have to wonder if it's possible to meld the two genres together for the perfect experience....

edited 18th Mar '14 4:00:12 PM by Rinsankajugin

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#5780: Mar 18th 2014 at 4:10:07 PM

[up][up]I did play the hell out of it once the English patch team managed to crack it. I had a pretty Majin lady. Too bad a comprehensive patch wasn't possible until so close to the end, though...

[up]oh hell yes
A fighting game RPG of any kind is something I've been wanting for ages. And Dragon Ball would make a good topic for it.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5781: Mar 18th 2014 at 4:52:05 PM

Surprisingly, I completely agree with Tobias. Aside from Imperfect Cell, a few creative fights, and more spotlight for the non-Gokus, the Cell arc was pretty much complete shit, and Perfect Cell is easily the least entertaining main villain in the series.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#5782: Mar 18th 2014 at 5:13:23 PM

Gero carries out his plan of killing Goku by wandering around South City for no reason; Goku and crew show up to stop him, but only because they were forewarned that he would be there, meaning Gero's there because Goku is and Goku is there because Gero is; at some point the universe just arbitrarily selected South City to be the place the two meet.

Remember that the Red Ribbon Army's stated goal was to take over the world, and it'd be a bit strange for Gero to be working for them if he wasn't interested in that. Revenge on Goku is not his only motivation. Besides, it's nowhere near as coincidental as you make out: even if Goku didn't know Gero was there, Gero can draw him to South City just by destroying stuff. In the future timeline South City was attacked despite Goku being dead anyway.

Gero himself is fairly nonsensical in his projects; he is somehow capable of building androids that are more powerful than even the strongest being in the universe, because reasons.

Why is this a problem? What is so sacred about Freeza and Goku at this point in the story? If you ask me, Freeza's the one who is a problem. Literally 1000 stronger than his top henchman, stronger than even the Gods of the afterlife, and no explanation is given in the story whatsoever. He just is. Gero at least has a major scientific breakthrough in infinite energy to support the Androids being so powerful.

He builds them in reverse order, with each new batch of androids being weaker than the previous, because he apparently does not understand how upgrades work.

That's not completely true, as 20 was stronger than 19. The reason he built them weaker was because he was still trying to build a successful Android, and he started out making them too strong to be controlled. Then he builds 19, the first successful Android, and the next one he makes is the same model but stronger.

His androids are sometimes cyborgs and sometimes not for no real reason, and he somehow turned himself into an android.

Because he tried different things as he tried to make the correct Android. Fully mechanical model not working out? Make cyborgs from human bases. Uppity little shits don't listen, even when you suppress their power? Go back to your older work and improve.

Basically, Gero is a giant, walking pile of nonsense whose history, character, and motivations all operate on bullshit. He's the most blatant walking plot device in the series

Really, the only problem is that Goku apparently remembered him when Trunks mentioned him. We had an Android already, and obviously that had been created by someone, even if we didn't see him. It was also pretty likely (though not guaranteed) that the person was working for the Red Ribbon Army, so to go "Yeah, the creator of Android 8 worked for the RRA and is pretty pissed you destroyed everything" isn't problematic by itself. Plenty of room for him to fit without having to have him appear before. The only problem is squeezing him into Goku's memory, which does suggest there is an interaction we've missed.

His masterstroke, Cell, isn't much better. Cell is a combination of the cells of several characters and the result is something that isn't anything like any of them.

Because he resembles insects/bugs, due to various insect lifeforms also being used.

He's a lizard monster that sucks all the meat and bones and organs out of people through his tail, which he gets from.......I guess Frieza had odd habits? Sure, we'll go with that.

Where did you even get lizard from? As I said, his appearance is based off insects and bugs. As for the tail, given the whole purpose of absorbing people and Androids for power, I'm pretty sure that's a deliberate part of the design. Gero/his computer weren't just throwing DNA into a mixer and seeing what grows out, Cell was deliberately designed, so he doesn't have to get everything from his DNA. If you think it must come from something whose DNA he has, then chalk it up to Reduviidae DNA.

He has transformations that aren't Frieza's transformations either because they make him stronger rather than weaker, and they aren't Super Saiyan transformations either because they require him to consume Androids 17 and 18, and it has to specifically be those two androids and not 16 or 19 or 20 because it just does, and Dr. Gero couldn't have just built the upgrades he needs from them into him because reasons.

Again, the transformations were specifically designed for him. They don't have to come from his DNA donors. The reason they have to be 17 and 18 is because they're the only cyborgs, and fully mechanical beings aren't compatible with Cell. So it's not an arbitrary choice on Gero's part.

And also he doesn't actually need them at all, and can take his Perfect Form after losing 18 because he just can, stop asking questions.

Cell reverting to his perfect form is weird, but that's not actually true. He says his body remembered his perfect form, meaning yes he did need 18 in the first place so his body could do that. Secondly, that implies the change is purely aesthetic - the power he had was from the recovery, and then his body molded itself into his perfect form rather than his semi-perfect one.

Cell is basically a walking, bio-mechanical pile of narrative bullshit with New Powers as the Plot Demands, who has almost none of the properties of the characters he's supposed to be a composite of, and who was created by a walking Plot Device pretending to be a face from the past come back for revenge.

What New Powers as the Plot Demands? There's his superior regeneration, and his ability to return to his perfect form (even aesthetically), but everything else is pretty straightforward. As for having almost none of the properties of the character's he draws DNA from... completely, utterly untrue:

  • Insect/bugs - their appearance, possibly feeding methods as well
  • Saiyans - near death recovery, Super Saiyan properties
  • Namekians - regeneration, asexual reproduction
  • Freeza - can survive in space, can survive grievous injuries

The only thing he's missing is the Saiyan's ability to turn into an Oozaru, which all the actual Saiyans are also missing at this point.

Why does Cell even exist? Dr. Gero was creating androids to kill Goku. Cell needs to absorb Androids 17 and 18 to reach his Perfect Form, presumably to become powerful enough to kill Goku because that's the only goal Gero has. Androids 17 and 18 are designed to kill Goku, and Gero released them long before Cell was finished in all timelines. So...what's the point here? Either they succeed in killing Goku, at which point there is no reason for Cell to even exist at all, or they fail and are destroyed, at which point Cell cannot absorb them and attain his Perfect Form. Cell's reliance upon them is a blatant design flaw, and further reinforces Gero's tendency to make ridiculous, even counterproductive decisions because the plot requires him to.

Cell's purpose is a curious one and one I would have liked more info on, but it should be noted that he wasn't intended to take so long to be completed. Gero basically left him to his computer when it began taking too long, essentially giving up on him but not completely writing him off. And 17 and 18 were also released way before they were ready, out of desperation.

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5783: Mar 18th 2014 at 5:23:59 PM

[up][up] Perfect Cell may be the least entertaining villain to you, but to many fans in America, Perfect Cell is best villain in the franchise, because he's pretty much the personification of Evil Is Cool and American anime fans in general love cool villains. Which only adds to my fury and genuine dislike for large sections of the Dragon Ball Z American fanbase.

edited 18th Mar '14 5:26:37 PM by FireShadow

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5784: Mar 18th 2014 at 5:27:33 PM

I don't think he's that cool though. What's cool about him? That he has a way higher power level than everyone else? That he loses despite it? That he spams the same two techniques and almost never uses anything else?

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#5785: Mar 18th 2014 at 6:37:20 PM

I honestly have to agree with Saiga here.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5786: Mar 18th 2014 at 6:46:21 PM

Why is this a problem? What is so sacred about Freeza and Goku at this point in the story? If you ask me, Freeza's the one who is a problem. Literally 1000 stronger than his top henchman, stronger than even the Gods of the afterlife, and no explanation is given in the story whatsoever. He just is. Gero at least has a major scientific breakthrough in infinite energy to support the Androids being so powerful.

Freeza's super-advanced galaxy-spanning empire upgraded him with their best cybernetics, and he still wasn't anywhere near as strong as two teenage punks modified by a crazy old man in a cave with limited resources.

That's not completely true, as 20 was stronger than 19. The reason he built them weaker was because he was still trying to build a successful Android, and he started out making them too strong to be controlled. Then he builds 19, the first successful Android, and the next one he makes is the same model but stronger.

It makes no sense that 19 would be easier to control than 16 just on part of being weaker and having a different power source. Neither of those things have anything to do with AI. It makes even less sense that Gero wouldn't make himself an organic infinite energy model like 17 and 18.

Because he tried different things as he tried to make the correct Android. Fully mechanical model not working out? Make cyborgs from human bases. Uppity little shits don't listen, even when you suppress their power? Go back to your older work and improve.

Oooooor just turn yourself into the same model as them. Or give 19 an infinite energy reactor.

Really, the only problem is that Goku apparently remembered him when Trunks mentioned him. We had an Android already, and obviously that had been created by someone, even if we didn't see him. It was also pretty likely (though not guaranteed) that the person was working for the Red Ribbon Army, so to go "Yeah, the creator of Android 8 worked for the RRA and is pretty pissed you destroyed everything" isn't problematic by itself. Plenty of room for him to fit without having to have him appear before. The only problem is squeezing him into Goku's memory, which does suggest there is an interaction we've missed.

The problem is people trying to pretend he and Cell had more connection to anything than the other villains. He and Cell both are pulled out of nowhere and given absurd capabilities for plot purposes, with contradictory and nonsense connections thought up at the last minute to fool people into thinking they aren't a total Ass Pull.

Again, the transformations were specifically designed for him. They don't have to come from his DNA donors. The reason they have to be 17 and 18 is because they're the only cyborgs, and fully mechanical beings aren't compatible with Cell. So it's not an arbitrary choice on Gero's part.

So why even bother with those two? Why make Cell absorb them instead of just having him at full capacity from the beginning?

What New Powers as the Plot Demands? There's his superior regeneration, and his ability to return to his perfect form (even aesthetically), but everything else is pretty straightforward. As for having almost none of the properties of the character's he draws DNA from... completely, utterly untrue:

There's also his ability to get stronger by blowing himself up, which for some reason only worked once. And his ability to gain waaaaaaaay more power than he should just from absorbing some humans. And somehow learning Instant Transmission for no reason after he blows himself up.

edited 18th Mar '14 6:46:35 PM by sockpuppet1

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#5788: Mar 18th 2014 at 7:34:11 PM

Freeza's super-advanced galaxy-spanning empire upgraded him with their best cybernetics, and he still wasn't anywhere near as strong as two teenage punks modified by a crazy old man in a cave with limited resources.

As a life-saving measure, and we're told nothing about them being super advanced. Bulma and Dr Briefs understand their tech easy enough. Also, they never discovered infinite energy. You've got no idea what resources Gero was even working with, as well.

It makes no sense that 19 would be easier to control than 16 just on part of being weaker and having a different power source. Neither of those things have anything to do with AI. It makes even less sense that Gero wouldn't make himself an organic infinite energy model like 17 and 18.

We don't even have true AI in our world, so I don't think you can claim that. With 17, Gero makes it sound as though there's only so much he can do for one Android, and the infinite energy reactors and power don't leave him room to tighten the control. That's hardly far-fetched for this verse.

Oooooor just turn yourself into the same model as them. Or give 19 an infinite energy reactor.

As 17 said, 19 would be too strong as an infinite type and Gero couldn't handle him. Gero not making him an infinite energy model makes sense because he patterned himself after the only Android type that would be a success - turning himself into an organic/infinite type would be another experiment.

The problem is people trying to pretend he and Cell had more connection to anything than the other villains. He and Cell both are pulled out of nowhere and given absurd capabilities for plot purposes, with contradictory and nonsense connections thought up at the last minute to fool people into thinking they aren't a total Ass Pull.

His connection to the Red Ribbon Army isn't all that important though. It's important for explaining his motivation and why there are more Androids, that's it.

So why even bother with those two? Why make Cell absorb them instead of just having him at full capacity from the beginning?

Good question. Those two were presumably made before Cell. Cell's absorption of them would save resources, and there's not much risk since he can keep them incapacitated. There's also no telling if he could have built Cell at full capacity from the beginning.

There's also his ability to get stronger by blowing himself up, which for some reason only worked once. And his ability to gain waaaaaaaay more power than he should just from absorbing some humans. And somehow learning Instant Transmission for no reason after he blows himself up.

The Zenkai isn't new powers as the plot demands, that's a Saiyan ability. How do you know he gained way more power from absorbing "some" humans, when we don't know how many humans he absorbed or how strong he got? Forgot about immediate Instant Tramission, I'll give you that.

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#5789: Mar 18th 2014 at 7:38:48 PM

Attempt to change topic a catastrophic failure! Abort! Abort!

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#5790: Mar 18th 2014 at 7:47:31 PM

I was already talkin' about that new game, but I guess Cell is more important. tongue

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#5791: Mar 18th 2014 at 7:49:14 PM

Here's my question.

Is it still gonna be a weird card game?

My various fanfics.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5793: Mar 18th 2014 at 7:55:26 PM

As a life-saving measure, and we're told nothing about them being super advanced. Bulma and Dr Briefs understand their tech easy enough. Also, they never discovered infinite energy. You've got no idea what resources Gero was even working with, as well.

They have, among other things, stretching armor, regular guns that can harm moon busters, massively FTL spaceships, robots, near-instant healing medical technology, scouters, and ships that can somehow propel themselves despite being shaped like spheres. We plainly see that they're ridiculously advanced. I'm not buying that they were completely outdone by one guy in a cave on a galactic backwater. Especially when said guy has no backing from any existing organization, and apparently only one facility and no other help.

I agree that killing Goku wasn't his main goal. Otherwise, there would be nothing wrong with 16, as despite his gentle nature and desire to protect the Earth, he still wanted to kill Goku, and would have been able to do so effortlessly if Gero just released him.

We don't even have true AI in our world, so I don't think you can claim that. With 17, Gero makes it sound as though there's only so much he can do for one Android, and the infinite energy reactors and power don't leave him room to tighten the control. That's hardly far-fetched for this verse.

It doesn't make any sense in-universe. Power sources and programming are completely different.

So why not make himself an infinite energy model? Why not put his brain in 16's body? Apparently, the only thing wrong with 17 and 18 is that they act like the bratty teenagers that they are instead of the monsters Gero wants them to be. We receive no indication that being more powerful randomly makes them act differently, they just appear to act the same way they did prior to the cybernetic enhancement.

As 17 said, 19 would be too strong as an infinite type and Gero couldn't handle him. Gero not making him an infinite energy model makes sense because he patterned himself after the only Android type that would be a success - turning himself into an organic/infinite type would be another experiment.

Again, why would making 19 stronger somehow affect his programming? Somehow make him more gentle?

Except infinite energy types WERE a success. The only problem was programming, unrelated to power, and a problem he could solve with his own brain.

His connection to the Red Ribbon Army isn't all that important though. It's important for explaining his motivation and why there are more Androids, that's it.

I know that his connection has nothing to do with anything. My problem is when people pretend that it does, and that's super vital.

Good question. Those two were presumably made before Cell. Cell's absorption of them would save resources, and there's not much risk since he can keep them incapacitated. There's also no telling if he could have built Cell at full capacity from the beginning.

Why are resources suddenly a problem? He built 20 of the damn things...

The Zenkai isn't new powers as the plot demands, that's a Saiyan ability. How do you know he gained way more power from absorbing "some" humans, when we don't know how many humans he absorbed or how strong he got? Forgot about immediate Instant Tramission, I'll give you that.

Wasn't he stated to absorb only a couple hundred thousand humans?

He became much, much stronger than Piccolo. Strong enough to tank his strongest attack (although Piccolo was exhausted when he launched it), and then beat him in one hit. Also strong enough to beat up two 17-tier fighters at the same time effortlessly, when previously one was enough to deal with him. Anyway, even if that wasn't stated, you're seriously telling me he absorbed like 30-40 million humans or more? In just that tiny amount of time? Without anyone noticing? That's a whole separate plot hole.

It's new powers as the plot demands because it just suddenly becomes a factor, and was never used any of the previous times he nearly died.

edited 18th Mar '14 7:57:40 PM by sockpuppet1

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#5794: Mar 18th 2014 at 8:08:43 PM

But this time, with a story mode!

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#5795: Mar 18th 2014 at 8:10:31 PM

Ehhhh. Still, it's like...if I wanted to play a card game, I'd play a card game. I mean, it's a cool looking card game, sure.

My various fanfics.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#5796: Mar 18th 2014 at 8:30:53 PM

Meh. I ain't gonna get into what's good and whats bad about Cell. I thought he was cool, though Buu beat him in the regeneration ability (when you can come back from being fucking smoke, it's safe to say you're pretty broken, and this was when Piccolo was Genre Savvy enough to destroy the pieces that were left).

He also gave us this scene and this scene.

Note: the second one is apparently a combination of the regular television english dub and apparently, another dub where Cell swore out loud before getting maimed.

I'm fully aware of the fact that two scenes where Cell gets owned (since I believe he did not expect those attacks at all, even if he ultimately shrugged both off) kinda undermines my point, but shut up.tongue

Cell is a big kid. He want's to be the toughest guy around, so he goes to all this trouble because he's programmed for it, and he has to two biggest ego maniacs (Vegeta and Frieza) as bases for his personality. He finally gets what he wants, and gets Drunk with Power. So he throws a big tournament to prove he's the coolest guy in cool town, and then have a little fun before he starts roflstomping the universe.

He's kinda like a spoiled child, who believes he should be the biggest dog in the yard because that's what's been drilled into his head for his whole life.

....fuck. I had more to say, but I seem to have forgot it. So I'll just say that I like him despite his flaws.

edited 18th Mar '14 8:44:51 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#5797: Mar 18th 2014 at 8:44:05 PM

[up]...that's a pretty good summary, actually. I never thought of it that way, but that's pretty much exactly what was going on, wasn't it?

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#5798: Mar 18th 2014 at 8:47:53 PM

Indeed. Look at his reaction to Gohan actually being stronger than him.

Thows a massive temper tantrum because that's not how it's supposed to go, and then pulls the mother of all rage quits.

.....Why do my attempts to defend him make him actually look bad. Well whatever the case, you can say that Cell and Buu are similar in that both are kinda immature when you get down to it.

Oh! I remembered what I originally wanted to say:

The thing about Cell is, unlike Vegeta or Frieza who wanted Power, and Buu, who was many different things at multiple points, Cell was just looking for a good fight, and a chance to show how cool he was. He was a just on a big ass ego trip.

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#5799: Mar 18th 2014 at 9:41:51 PM

[up] Personally, I think that's why Goku gave him the Senzu Bean. That moment is ridiculously, mind-numbingly stupid for many reasons, including the fate of the world being on the line and Cell being about to fight his son, but I wonder if the point of it was a contingency bid. Since Cell's entire motivation is being the sum total of all the ego and love of fighting that his component parts have, if Gohan can't defeat him, then showing him how much fun all this fighting really can be could result in him going, "You know what? You guys are all right! Come on, new best buddies, rest up and then we can have another sparring match! This is great!" and then becoming a new ally instead of destroying the world.

There are many flaws with that plan, but it's Goku. Nearly all of his allies have been bitter enemies trying to murder him at some point. He even extended mercy to Frieza. He would think like that.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#5800: Mar 18th 2014 at 9:53:10 PM

[up]

.....

~Begins clapping~

That makes a lot of sense.

edited 18th Mar '14 9:53:40 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!

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