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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#5751: Mar 17th 2014 at 4:09:05 PM

[up]

Most of the repetitiveness comes from the anime doesn't it?

Not bad, but need a bit more.

One Strip! One Strip!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#5752: Mar 17th 2014 at 4:12:20 PM

I could have sworn that Trunks did kill Cell, right after he finished 17 and 18.

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5754: Mar 17th 2014 at 4:17:02 PM

[up]x4 Well of course Dragon Ball being so old, you look back and think What Could Have Been. But these days in shonen manga or anime, the fight that we predict will happen, and eventually does happen, never always lives up to the potential that fans expect it to, so they often wish to see a fight that they wouldn't have expected.

edited 17th Mar '14 4:48:50 PM by FireShadow

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#5755: Mar 17th 2014 at 4:19:00 PM

[up] mmm,not always necessary,but i see your point.

i need to stop starting posts with hmm/mmm.

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5756: Mar 17th 2014 at 4:54:46 PM

[up] Keep on posting starting with "hmm/mmm", I always think of when Joey Wheeler says 'Nyeh' before or after every sentence when you start your posts with "hmm/mmm"... I love Yu Gi Oh The Abridged Series. smile

Oh God, now I'm starting to talk like Tristan! surprised

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#5757: Mar 17th 2014 at 5:04:08 PM

dragon ball creation must be a sweet ability. waii

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5758: Mar 17th 2014 at 5:20:30 PM

[up] If there is no limit to how many Dragon Balls you can create, then yeah, it's a sweet ability, but also pretty hax because it essentially means you change the laws and rules of the universe and/or life and death to suit your needs and if you ever want to stop someone from abusing the Dragon Balls you can just create a password or kill yourself and cause the Dragon Balls to vanish forever... that's a pretty broken ability. tongue

edited 4th Apr '14 4:23:49 PM by FireShadow

alEKos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#5759: Mar 17th 2014 at 5:32:36 PM

i did like the 'negative energy' drawback.the shadow dragons were a nice concept.

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5760: Mar 17th 2014 at 5:48:01 PM

[up] The Shadow Dragons was an awesome concept and is also beautifully subtly foreshadowed in the manga and anime. The execution of the Shadow Dragons Arc was terrible though, especially the ending. Seriously, what the hell happened in the last two episodes of GT? It was very confusing, even by Dragon Ball standards.

edited 17th Mar '14 5:48:38 PM by FireShadow

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#5761: Mar 17th 2014 at 5:57:44 PM

They should have just killed Dende, then the Shadow Dragons would all die. tongue

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#5762: Mar 17th 2014 at 6:07:34 PM

[up][up] Gainax must have been writing the plot at that point.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#5763: Mar 17th 2014 at 6:37:50 PM

[up][up]

But they're not assholes.....

Well, maybe Vegeta.

edited 17th Mar '14 6:38:06 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#5764: Mar 17th 2014 at 7:14:29 PM

Dende doesn't have to stay dead. Just have Porunga resurrect him.

I agree that the Shadow Dragon arc could have been really good if it was executed better.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#5765: Mar 17th 2014 at 7:18:19 PM

@Tobias As Sockpuppet pointed out, you're wrong about that. The three instances aren't as you said they were:

  • Goku doesn't kill Fat Boo after successfully putting up an even fight and stalling. He says he was unsure he could kill Fat Boo, but is confident in the fusion. Later it is revealed that he knew he could have killed Fat Boo but felt it was more important for the next generation to take over. He also needs to leave for other world before his 24 hours are up because of Super Saiyan 3.
  • Gotenks runs out of fusion time after putting up an even fight which he couldn't do as a Super Saiyan 1. The whole thing about him not being enough as a Super Saiyan 1 and having Super Saiyan 3 up his sleeve was what led to being trapped in the room and breaking out. It also led to the 1 hour waiting period after fusion which caused Boo to have to lie low and wait it out to absorb them.
  • Goku fails to kill Pure Boo... after fighting evenly with him and making Vegeta admit Goku is better than him. He doesn't fail because his power isn't enough, but because Super Saiyan 3 drains too much energy.

In all three instances it appears, Super Saiyan 3 does something Super Saiyan 1 or 2 could not. In the first, it's already been established that Goku and Vegeta are dead equal without Super Saiyan 3, so for it to work without Super Saiyan 3 you'd have to either:

  • Remove the fight with Fat Boo entirely, and just have Fat Boo not target West City or have them get the radar without needing Boo to be stalled.
  • Retcon Goku into being much, much stronger than Vegeta as a Super Saiyan 2 so he can fight Boo
  • Have Goku get his shit wrecked by Boo in a one-sided smackdown, then teleport away or get erased permanently - and then Boo has no reason to listen to him about fusion
  • Change Vegeta's fight so he's also able to fight evenly with Boo (and eventually revealed to be able to kill him, but just doesn't).

And also either:

  • Invent a new reason for Goku not to be able to stay on Earth for the full 24 hours
  • Have him stick around on Earth, therefore not meeting Goku and having someone else break the Z Sword, talk Old Kaioshin into powering up Gohan, change the way he receives the potara, etc.

Plus, you need a new reason for Vegeta to be problematic later on since he hasn't seen Super Saiyan 3.

For the second instance, it'd be much easier to replace Gotenks' Super Saiyan 3 with Super Saiyan 2 or him just boringly holding back as a Super Saiyan 1, but then you'd have to either:

  • Give Super Saiyan 2 an impractically intense energy drain which was never alluded to before and really hurts the idea of it being the proper ascension from Super Saiyan 1.
  • Make the 1 hour downtime a part of fusion itself. Hey, at least many people already think it is.
  • Have their be no fusion downtime, and much less craftiness on Boo's part to get to absorbing them.

Even though I like the idea of Gotenks not having Super Saiyan 3, purely to make fusion more powerful, it's obviously going to cause changes. Only the second option of those isn't just plain worse.

For the third instance, you've got the same problem where Vegeta can't fight Boo but Goku can. So you've got the same options as earlier, except you don't really have the option of Vegeta being equal to Goku or Goku getting his shit wrecked for Vegeta's speech to have any meaning. Plus, Super Saiyan 3 was important because the energy drain took Goku by surprise and took him out of the fight, then left him unable to throw the Spirit Bomb, necessitating the final wish be used to restore his energy. Again, you can give that to Super Saiyan 2 and ruin the point of it, or you could just have him fatigued from fighting, or not use the final wish and leave that hanging. The second is rather workable, if you manage to get that far.

Super Saiyan 3 accomplished multiple things. Firstly, it bought Trunks the time he needed to get the Dragon Radar. Secondly, it impressed Boo enough to convince him to follow Goku's request, which led to Boo lying relatively low and Satan befriending him, leading to Evil Boo and Mr Boo's eventual redemption. Thirdly, it assisted Vegeta's character development, forcing him to swallow his pride and admit Goku was better.

There's also the fact that Super Saiyan 3 is more than just power. It's a flawed form, and the inefficiency of it is drives the plot as much if not moreso than the power of it. It's fitting that the correct ascension that is Super Saiyan 2, with it's subtle design, is followed by an outrageous form that takes things too far, and is cripplingly flawed because of it. As such the fact that it doesn't defeat anyone does not make it useless to the story, as that is not necessary for an element to have impact on the story.

Super Saiyan 3 is a flawed form, one that has enough power to help the heroes out when the situation is drastic enough to call for it, and enough drawbacks to present new problems that further the story along.


On the current conversation: The Shadow Dragons arc is the worst part about GT. It turns a lot of characters into negligent assholes, and punishes the heroes for doing the right thing. It also suggests that more selfish wishes would have led to them being rewarded.

It's not the heroes fault that the Dragon Balls are so easy to use. They don't abuse them, they simply do the responsible thing and restore the lives of the innocents killed by the villains, or to aid them in stopping said villains. The Shadow Dragons arc tells them they were wrong for doing that, which is completely incorrect.

It wasn't foreshadowed either. Old Kaioshin's "warning" does not remotely work as foreshadowing for something as serious as that. It's a gag based on him being very stiff, so he's not happy that such things exist because the Kaioshin themselves are meant to maintain order. If he knew about the Shadow Dragons, it would make no sense just to say "It's not right to use those, but I'm not going to tell you why, and let you continue doing so, despite the fact that the universe will explode if I do nothing". He had a stronger reaction to Super Saiyan being the wrong way of doing things (calling it "depraved") for being inferior to his unlocking. That level of threat, and the inevitability of it occurring if he doesn't stop them, just doesn't suit how little protest he puts up about using the balls.

edited 17th Mar '14 7:32:23 PM by Saiga

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#5766: Mar 17th 2014 at 7:28:59 PM

Super Saiyan 3 Berserk (the guy with Raditz hair)

His hair only grew a smidgen, but it did.

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5767: Mar 17th 2014 at 8:09:18 PM

About the heroes never defeating their personal villains: Cell had no connection to Trunks or anyone else. He was just a random monster that showed up to spice things up; he wasn't from Trunks' timeline, he wasn't responsible for messing up the future, he wasn't an android, and he wasn't even created by Gero. Trunks was one of the few heroes who actually did defeat his personal villains- future 17 and future 18.

What's this about Vegeta "exploring the legacy of his race"? He explicitly didn't give a shit about his race, he just wanted to rule the galaxy in Freeza's place. Up until maybe the very end of the Buu arc, he and Freeza are the exact same person.

Goku defeating King Piccolo should also qualify. And he was just as vital to Raditz's defeat as Piccolo was. Maybe slightly less so, but it's certainly not like Trunks swooping in out of nowhere to kill Freeza after Freeza explicitly declared his intention to have a rematch with Goku. Goku also had no personal connection to the 'droids, who didn't even know who he was, just that killing him would be a good way to kill time.

I wouldn't say Majin Buu is anyone's personal Big Bad. He's connected to all of the heroes; he was brought about by, and kills, Vegeta, Gohan is hyped up to defeat him after Buu murders his family, same for Gotenks, and Buu, especially Super Buu, is basically a mirror image of Goku. Gohan should have been the one to beat him, though, or at the very least the final team effort should have been rewritten to be less sloppy.

edited 17th Mar '14 8:13:56 PM by sockpuppet1

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#5768: Mar 17th 2014 at 8:46:59 PM

Cell is considered Android 21 though, since he was a bio-android.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#5769: Mar 18th 2014 at 7:43:16 AM

[up][up]That's rather pointless nitpicking. The sires of Dr. Gero ruined Trunks' life, and Cell, even if from a different timeline, is a sire of Dr. Gero.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#5770: Mar 18th 2014 at 9:06:22 AM

And Trunks killed Cell anyway...the end.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#5771: Mar 18th 2014 at 10:18:00 AM

I liked Cell because he was the culmination of everything in the series up to that point - the Red Ribbon Army, Piccolo, the Saiyans, and Frieza - all coming back to bite Goku at once full-circle. It would've made an awesome finale.

I liked the Buu saga, but I consider it an "after-years" chapter moreso than a core installment because Buu wasn't really connected to anything.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#5772: Mar 18th 2014 at 11:58:42 AM

I'm less fond of Cell because he feels like a Giant Space Flea from Nowhere pretending to be connected to the cast and stories to this point. Dr. Gero was already a brand new character pretending to be an old character, citing connections to the Red Ribbon Army that were never even so much as hinted at in the original Red Ribbon arc.

The closest thing to a connection is Android 8, who is identified in an anime filler episode to have been created by Dr. Flappe, a character that does not appear in the manga. 8 is the only android that appears in the entire Red Ribbon arc, and his role is actually to help Goku fight against the Red Ribbon Army, turncoating against Murasaki immediately after being set free and helping to take down General White.

So Gero's connection to the Red Ribbon Army and to Android 8 is already nebulous. Additionally, he fails to follow theme - the Red Ribbon characters are always named after colors, Gero is not - and his motivation is pretty lazy; he has no real goals, he just wants revenge against Goku for a story in which he wasn't even a part. Really, his only connection to the Red Ribbon Army storyline is that he wears their insignia.

Gero carries out his plan of killing Goku by wandering around South City for no reason; Goku and crew show up to stop him, but only because they were forewarned that he would be there, meaning Gero's there because Goku is and Goku is there because Gero is; at some point the universe just arbitrarily selected South City to be the place the two meet.

Gero himself is fairly nonsensical in his projects; he is somehow capable of building androids that are more powerful than even the strongest being in the universe, because reasons. He builds them in reverse order, with each new batch of androids being weaker than the previous, because he apparently does not understand how upgrades work. His existence is a temporal plot hole that retroactively makes Trunks the absolute worst harbinger of future events ever, handwaved in the story by quickly citing the Butterfly Effect and moving on. His androids are sometimes cyborgs and sometimes not for no real reason, and he somehow turned himself into an android.

Basically, Gero is a giant, walking pile of nonsense whose history, character, and motivations all operate on bullshit. He's the most blatant walking plot device in the series. His masterstroke, Cell, isn't much better. Cell is a combination of the cells of several characters and the result is something that isn't anything like any of them. He's a lizard monster that sucks all the meat and bones and organs out of people through his tail, which he gets from.......I guess Frieza had odd habits? Sure, we'll go with that. He has transformations that aren't Frieza's transformations either because they make him stronger rather than weaker, and they aren't Super Saiyan transformations either because they require him to consume Androids 17 and 18, and it has to specifically be those two androids and not 16 or 19 or 20 because it just does, and Dr. Gero couldn't have just built the upgrades he needs from them into him because reasons. And also he doesn't actually need them at all, and can take his Perfect Form after losing 18 because he just can, stop asking questions.

Cell is basically a walking, bio-mechanical pile of narrative bullshit with New Powers as the Plot Demands, who has almost none of the properties of the characters he's supposed to be a composite of, and who was created by a walking Plot Device pretending to be a face from the past come back for revenge. Personally, I consider the Cell Saga to be the weakest of the DB/DBZ arcs; those are just my complaints with two of its characters. Majin Buu was also a sudden random super-monster whose powers run on bullshit, with no connection to any of the story that came before, but at least he copped to it and is presented as an ancient, magical god-killing uberbeast.

EDIT: Why does Cell even exist? Dr. Gero was creating androids to kill Goku. Cell needs to absorb Androids 17 and 18 to reach his Perfect Form, presumably to become powerful enough to kill Goku because that's the only goal Gero has. Androids 17 and 18 are designed to kill Goku, and Gero released them long before Cell was finished in all timelines. So...what's the point here? Either they succeed in killing Goku, at which point there is no reason for Cell to even exist at all, or they fail and are destroyed, at which point Cell cannot absorb them and attain his Perfect Form. Cell's reliance upon them is a blatant design flaw, and further reinforces Gero's tendency to make ridiculous, even counterproductive decisions because the plot requires him to.

EDIT EDIT: Wow, okay, that was supposed to be, like, three paragraphs. Um...tldr: I didn't like the Cell Saga, and am apparently passionate enough about that opinion to write an essay on it.

edited 18th Mar '14 12:12:51 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alEKos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#5773: Mar 18th 2014 at 12:12:06 PM

he wasnt the sanest of guys. [lol]

but yeah,giant space flea made by executive meddling.

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#5774: Mar 18th 2014 at 2:34:52 PM

...I... think I pushed someone's buttons.

I'll just be... not here.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Spirit Pretty flower from America Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Hooked on a feeling
Pretty flower
#5775: Mar 18th 2014 at 2:46:53 PM

'lotta negativity getting thrown around lately. Let's switch gears and go back to the positives kay?

#IceBearForPresident

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