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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#5726: Mar 16th 2014 at 5:30:59 PM

Remember when being a Super Saiyan 3 was the Holy Shit Quotient of the franchise?

No. I remember when the original Super Saiyan was. I remember when Super Saiyan 2 was. Super Saiyan 3 was made up by Goku offscreen and then immediately mastered by Gotenks after seeing him do it once, and accomplishing absolutely nothing, failing to kill Majin Buu twice. Frankly, you could remove it from the series entirely and nothing would change.

edited 16th Mar '14 5:31:59 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5727: Mar 16th 2014 at 6:29:25 PM

[up] I highly doubt that. Even though they could only retain the form for a few minutes at best, achieving Super Saiyan 3 was very important. How the hell would the Saiyans have been able to keep up if wasn't for Super Saiyan 3? If Goku and Gotenks didn't become Super Saiyan 3's Majin Boo would have slaughtered them.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#5728: Mar 16th 2014 at 6:31:40 PM

Toriyama could have made Majin Buu weak enough that Super Saiyan 3 wasn't needed. He introduced what, five Shonen Upgrades just in that saga? I'm sure fusion alone would have been perfectly serviceable if he wrote the series in a different way.

edited 16th Mar '14 6:31:59 PM by Kostya

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#5729: Mar 16th 2014 at 6:33:16 PM

Toriyama could have made Majin Buu weak enough that Super Saiyan 3 wasn't needed

Which is changing something. It's completely wrong to say "and nothing would change" if something needs to be changed for the removal to work.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#5730: Mar 16th 2014 at 6:36:05 PM

I wasn't the one who made the "nothing would change" comment. I'm just noting that there are ways to make it so Super Saiyan 3 wasn't needed. Technically it wasn't since Buu was killed by a plain old Spirit Bomb, something Goku's had since the midway point of the Saiyan Saga.

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5731: Mar 16th 2014 at 6:38:42 PM

[up][up][up] It also depends which version of Majin Boo you're dealing with because they're characteristics are dramatically different:

  • Fat Boo would most likely laugh off the idea of fusion and stand by an watch it happen.
  • Super Boo would most be mostly be already prepared if the heroes were gonna fuses with each other and have a plan, with several other back up plans, in the making.
  • Kid Boo would just go "Screw This!" and either go straight for the kill, blow up the planet or beat the holy hell out of the heroes.

edited 16th Mar '14 6:40:12 PM by FireShadow

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#5732: Mar 16th 2014 at 6:43:09 PM

Wasn't Super Buu stupid enough to stand there and let Goten and Trunks fuse when he was promised he'd get a good fight? The only one that would give them trouble is Kid Buu although I think the series could have done without him too. You could also just fuse where he can't see you and suddenly attack him.

edited 16th Mar '14 6:43:35 PM by Kostya

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5733: Mar 16th 2014 at 6:52:35 PM

[up] You have to remember, part of Majin Boo's conscious and memories are within Super Boo's mind when Super Boo ate and absorbed him, so he already knows how weak Goten and Trunks are when fused together, because he has subconscious recollection of when Majin Boo fucked up Gotenks effortlessly the first time they fought.

Super Boo, however, didn't count on Gotenks being able to turn into a Super Saiyan 3 and then beating the shit out of him, but he sure made the most of it!

edited 16th Mar '14 6:58:32 PM by FireShadow

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#5734: Mar 16th 2014 at 7:23:25 PM

Super Saiyan 3 might just be my favourite Saiyan form, but I do think the Boo arc might've been better without it because of the problems it brings. Goku having it is a total retcon and contradictory to a few things he's said before, it also makes him irresponsible, and Gotenks having it undervalues fusion somewhat. I think Gotenks would be better off without it however I wish there was some way for Goku to have it without contradicting the earlier stuff (which only works if Super Saiyan 2 is his max).

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5735: Mar 17th 2014 at 12:19:29 AM

It's quite wrong to say that "Super Saiyan 3 accomplished nothing", because Majin Buu would've roflstomped everyone and blown up the solar system without it.

edited 17th Mar '14 12:20:02 AM by sockpuppet1

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5736: Mar 17th 2014 at 2:39:16 AM

I loved Super Saiyan 3 because it shows that even the strongest fighters had limits to their power and achieving the form itself required you to push you physical body to areas that were unimaginable. It was the epitome of training beyond your limits and being rewarded for it... then Super Saiyan 4 retconned that.

ScorpioRat from Houston, Texas Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Forming Voltron
#5737: Mar 17th 2014 at 4:51:32 AM

I think Super Saiyan 4 isn't just another extra power boost because of training, it's like a sign of mastery over yourself. SSJ 3 is all power in a raw form that is so strong it gives the user a time limit before the strain becomes too much. SSJ 4 is a sign of being able to control your crazy Saiyan power in a stable form. It's the Golden Great Ape in a condensed human shell.

edited 17th Mar '14 4:51:44 AM by ScorpioRat

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#5739: Mar 17th 2014 at 8:28:23 AM

By the time Super Saiyan 3 is introduced, hard numerical power levels have long since been forgotten, and power levels are given in nebulous, "He's more powerful than X!" ways. The characters, moreso than in any other arc in the series, are as powerful as the plot needs them to be, especially where Fusion and the Mystic/Ultimate Gohan upgrade are concerned.

There are three instances where Super Saiyan 3 appears.

  • Goku fails to kill Majin Buu and eventually retreats with Instant Transmission.
  • Gotenks fails to kill Super Buu and then his Fusion runs out.
  • Goku fails to kill Pure Buu and then Vegeta has to come up with the Spirit Bomb idea.

In all three of these instances, if Super Saiyan 3 was replaced with the already established Super Saiyan 2, or hell even Super Saiyan 1, you could still have the characters fail miserably at killing Majin Buu, necessitating the next step of the plot. Gohan's Random Free Super-Powerup at least necessitated Super Buu to start absorbing people before fizzling into pointless, but Super Saiyan 3 accomplished nothing at any point in the series.

I loved Super Saiyan 3 because it shows that even the strongest fighters had limits to their power and achieving the form itself required you to push you physical body to areas that were unimaginable. It was the epitome of training beyond your limits and being rewarded for it... then Super Saiyan 4 retconned that.

If you can reach a point beyond your limits by training really hard until you hit it, then it is, by definition, not beyond your limits, because you are able to get there by training really hard.

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alEKos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#5740: Mar 17th 2014 at 8:45:41 AM

ha,I remember my country's dub version of that 3rd time.there Goku was actually trying to power up to a new form. [lol]

edited 17th Mar '14 8:46:29 AM by alEKos23

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#5741: Mar 17th 2014 at 9:01:42 AM

So they wrote that Goku just pulls a new SSJ put of no where by powering up as hard as he could...just to fight Majin Buu?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
alEKos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#5742: Mar 17th 2014 at 9:03:18 AM

no,he was trying to,but failed,as it happened in canon,where he got powered down to normal.

edit:misread what you said,sorry ›.› yeah,they justified the powering up that way.

edited 17th Mar '14 9:09:11 AM by alEKos23

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#5743: Mar 17th 2014 at 10:51:39 AM

I actually like 4 better than 3 because the concept was more original, having everything about the Saiyans that had built up to that point coming full circle. It felt as significant as when the Great Ape silhouette appeared when Kid Goku killed King Piccolo.

3 just seemed like a parody. MORE HAIR! MORE YELLING! MORE GLOWY STUFF! MORE SHAKING! AND MORE HAIR! I mean, I enjoyed the parts of the story that used it, but the form itself was just so over-the-top.

...i... is that bad?

edited 17th Mar '14 10:52:27 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#5744: Mar 17th 2014 at 11:09:15 AM

[up][up]That sounds like it would come from a lame parody of that scene.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5745: Mar 17th 2014 at 11:54:56 AM

If there were no SS-3, Buu never would have been kept busy long enough to be defeated. In any of those three circumstances.

From a meta perspective, without SS-3, Goku is no stronger or more useful than Vegeta, meaning the battles with Fat Buu and Pure Buu wouldn't happen, and the arc would have to be significantly rewritten.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#5746: Mar 17th 2014 at 3:11:08 PM

I was reading the YMMV page for Dragon Ball Z when I reached a point about Trunks not even getting to finish off his own built-up archnemesis, Cell, but instead getting killed by him instead. Thinking about it, it occurred to me that nobody gets to be the one to take down the villain set up to be their Big Bad.

  • Raditz is Goku's evil brother from space, who steals his son to force him into obedience. So does Goku get a big, epic moment of rising above and striking down his evil brother? Nope. Piccolo's special attack is what kills him.
  • Vegeta is the bigger, badder Raditz, with the entire arc building up the climactic showdown between him and Goku. And then it's Gohan and Krillin who carry the fight after Vegeta outlasts Goku.
  • Frieza is Vegeta's Big Bad, with a strong personal connection to Vegeta's backstory and history, and a plot revolving around Vegeta breaking free of Frieza's control and exploring the legacy of his race...right up until Frieza curbstomps him into the dirt, and Goku steps in with almost no connection to Frieza whatsoever, to carry the battle and win the day.
  • Frieza and King Cold then come to Earth to take vengeance against Goku, setting up an epic rematch that never comes to be, as Trunks enters the story right out of nowhere and slaughters them both.
  • Androids 16, 17, and 18 are all constructed with the purpose of killing Goku. Goku is their focus, and even though 17 and 18 are free of their programming, killing Goku still becomes their main concern. At the same time, 17 and 18 are also the horrors of Trunks and Gohan's future that he came into the past to warn everyone about. Every Saiyan except Vegeta has a personal stake in these androids, so which one kills them? None of them. Cell appears to be the Bigger Fish and eats 17 and 18, and kills 16.
  • As for Cell, he is also a great horror from Trunks's future; the biggest, baddest thing from the apocalyptic nightmare, who already murdered one version of Trunks in order to get here in the first place. Does Trunks find the strength to rise above him? Nope. Cell kills this Trunks too, and it's Gohan that defeats him.
  • Majin Buu is a major threat brought to the cast by the Supreme Kai, who quickly makes it Gohan's story arc. Gohan is the chosen one, the legend, the one who can become super powerful and defeat Majin Buu, and he does! Everything except the defeating of Majin Buu. Majin Buu eats him, and in the end, it all boils down to Goku and Vegeta, the two assholes whose rampant need to punch each other allowed him to awaken in the first place.

From Raditz dismissing Piccolo for being Not Goku only for Piccolo to come back and kill him dead, to Hercule/Mr. Satan, of all people, being the key element in Majin Buu's redemption and destruction, the series delights in characters with little to no relevance to the villain's plot showing up out of nowhere to win the day while the narratively important characters are cast aside or outright killed by their respective villain.

...that's actually a very uncommon trait for a story.

edited 17th Mar '14 3:17:06 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#5747: Mar 17th 2014 at 3:33:59 PM

[up]

Hmmm. Someone will probably have a good argument to that (that's why we're here) but I like that.

It's kinda funny that we never noticed before.

One Strip! One Strip!
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5748: Mar 17th 2014 at 4:00:47 PM

[up][up] And that's what I love about Dragon Ball... it always seem to set up the predictable outcome and then out of nowhere, a curve ball thrown at you in terms of the plot. I guess you could say that Toriyama's Xanatos Speed Chess writing style payed off in the end. smile

edited 17th Mar '14 4:01:19 PM by FireShadow

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#5749: Mar 17th 2014 at 4:04:17 PM

And to think, so many people complain that Dragonball is predictable.

Even I never caught that little detail. I'm kinda ashamed to call myself a fan now.

Still waiting on that counter-argument however.

One Strip! One Strip!

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