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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#57326: May 20th 2017 at 5:36:02 AM

I wouldn't say that. Goku started to let people live when he realized that doing so would let him always have a strong person to fight. He didn't really care what you did in the past, so long as you promised to stop doing it, he was cool. The only real exception to this is Freeza who he was going to let live out of cruel mercy more than anything else.

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#57327: May 20th 2017 at 6:52:41 AM

Reading Dragon Ball Super Chapter 24 (which was translated by Viz first, interestingly)

  • Goku and Vegeta defuse earlier than they thought. Gowasu speculates that Vegito's power made the Potara unstable.
  • Merged Zamasu has a new technique. He can open portals in space and punch Goku and Vegeta through them.
  • Future Trunks asks how much longer until Goku Black and Future Zamasu defuse. Supreme Kai says 20 minutes is likely.
  • Supreme Kai wished he were still an apprentice God like Zamasu and Kibito are, then he would be able to heal Goku and Vegeta. Future Trunks then says he too was an apprentice to the Gods during his training for the Future Dabura fight. It involved Future Trunks undergoing a ritual, the one with Old Kai dancing around him or a day. According to Supreme Kai, Future Trunks had the power to heal ever since. Future Trunks realized he unintentionally healed Future Mai and Gowasu, so he heads off to heal Goku and Vegeta.
  • Future Trunks finds Vegeta after Merged Zamasu blasts him, and attempts to heal him, but Supreme Kai warns him that he can only heal a Super Saiyan Blue leveled person once. Future Trunks tells Vegeta he's going to heal him. Vegeta refuses, and tell Future Trunks to heal Goku because Goku's the only one that can fight Merged Zamasu equally with Super Saiyan Blue. Vegeta learned this while he was fused to Goku. Vegeta flies off, telling Future Trunk they were all going to make it after this fight.
  • Meanwhile, Merged Zamasu is choking the life out of Goku, trying to get him to beg and grovel. Merged Zamasu recommences his spacehole beatdown of Goku, whoch allows Vegeta to save Goku and throw him to Future Trunks for healing. Merged Zamasu tried to get Vegeta to beg and grovel, but Vegeta's the PRINCE OF AL SAIYANS and would rather die that GIVE UP HIS PRIDE! Merged Zamasu isn't going to kill him until he's done making him suffer. Future Trunks heals Goku while Merged Zamasu beats Vegeta's face into a mess. Now healed to max, Goku thanks Future Trunks and gives Supreme Kai and opening to save Vegeta.
  • Goku goes Super Saiyan Blue, prompting Merged Zamasu to wonder if he's just stalling for time since Blue didn't work the first round. Goku then absorbed the aura of Blue into his being, which Vegeta states is the answer Goku has reached. Vegeta explains that Super Saiyan Blue's weakness is its full power only lasts for a short while, but Goku overcame that weakness by sealing Blue's overflowing power within his body, allowing him to fight continuously at 100 percent. Vegeta then says Goku outright completed Super Saiyan Blue. Goku can indeed fight equally with Merged Zamasu while he's like this, but on the last page Goku says his body is starting to break and that he knew it was too early in the fight to try what's basically Full Powered Super Saiyan Blue. Merged Zamasu is still fused, so it's up in the air if Goku can last long enough for his fusion to wear off.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#57328: May 20th 2017 at 7:05:20 AM

That... actually makes a lot of sense. Power bleed has always been a thing in this series with transformations and I do recall it being mentioned in some version of either BoG or RoF that Beerus and Whis can't be sensed because they don't allow their ki to bleed out or something.

Good on you, Toyotaro. I take back what I said before.

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#57329: May 20th 2017 at 7:10:23 AM

Yeah. Trunks getting healing powers is better than Super Saiyan rage to me, and I like the explanation for it too.Now I just hope Super Saiyan Sword is done away with next month.

I also like Full Power Super Saiyan Blue over combining it with Kaioken. It doesn't make Goku multiples of time stronger whenever he wants, and it explains that Goku was saving it as an emergency resort anyway because of how his body is breaking down.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#57330: May 20th 2017 at 7:22:26 AM

...But that's literally the same thing as SSJBKK tho; Goku was saving it as a last resort because he wasn't sure about the effects he was going to have on his body.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#57331: May 20th 2017 at 7:42:15 AM

Of course its the same in concept. This is how Toyotaro chose to approach what the outline gave.The difference here though, is that Manga Goku hasn't yet mastered it. Anime Goku can still at least spam Blue Kaioken as long as he doesn't go x10.

edited 20th May '17 7:47:29 AM by VeryMelon

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#57332: May 20th 2017 at 8:02:39 AM

The difference here though, is that Manga Goku hasn't yet mastered it. Anime Goku can still at least spam Blue Kaioken as long as he doesn't go x10.

Anime Goku hadn't mastered it either. He used it as a last resort against Zamasu and passed out after. It wasn't until much later during the TOP preliminaries he started using smaller multipliers. It is the exact same concept [lol]

edited 20th May '17 8:15:49 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#57333: May 20th 2017 at 10:39:19 AM

Supreme Kai wished he were still an apprentice God like Zamasu and Kibito are, then he would be able to heal Goku and Vegeta.

That makes no sense. Why would an apprentice have a power a full god would lack? You lose the power to heal after attaining full godhood?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#57334: May 20th 2017 at 10:47:20 AM

I don't really like it myself, but I guess Toyotarou went with it because it was in the outline. We never saw any of the Supreme Kai heal in the anime right?

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#57335: May 20th 2017 at 10:48:14 AM

The only Kai who did any healing in the manga was Kibito.

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#57336: May 20th 2017 at 10:52:52 AM

That's eye opening and backs up what I said.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#57337: May 20th 2017 at 10:56:49 AM

Supreme Kai wished he were still an apprentice God like Zamasu and Kibito are, then he would be able to heal Goku and Vegeta. Future Trunks then says he too was an apprentice to the Gods during his training for the Future Dabura fight. It involved Future Trunks undergoing a ritual, the one with Old Kai dancing around him or a day. According to Supreme Kai, Future Trunks had the power to heal ever since. Future Trunks realized he unintentionally healed Future Mai and Gowasu, so he heads off to heal Goku and Vegeta.

So learning to heal requires the same ritual as Old Kai's unlocking then? I assume it was either Kibito or the Supreme Kai of Trunks' timeline who did this, since Old Kai would have still been trapped in the sword (and died in it in Trunks' timeline during the Dabura fight).

For a while there, I thought I'd caught a plot hole.

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#57338: May 20th 2017 at 10:59:00 AM

Future Trunks trained with his timeline's Supreme and Old Kai. This was shown in the manga a long time ago.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#57339: May 20th 2017 at 11:39:33 AM

Wait what?

But they showed him training with the Z Sword and they made a big deal out of the Sword being destroyed...

Hold on. I'm gonna re-check that chapter. BRB.

Edit: Ok. I checked out Chapter 16 where Future Trunks recalls his training and the fight with Babidi:

  • It was him and The Supreme Kai and Kibito. Old Kai was still trapped in the Z Sword.

  • The fight with Babidi happened before they could use the Kachin (the material that broke the sword when Gohan was training with the sword).

  • During the fight, the Z Sword was turned to stone, and then blown up by Dabura. So Old Kai is dead.

edited 20th May '17 11:51:01 AM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#57340: May 20th 2017 at 11:51:37 AM

Pretty sure Rob's right. Elder Kaioushin was never freed from the Z Sword and died when Dabura turned it to stone and then broke it. Trunks never had his potential unleashed like Gohan did because that was something our Kaioushin didn't know how to do.

Come to think of it, our Kaioushin is kind of completely worthless. I can't readily recall him doing a damn thing besides paralyzing Gohan with his telekinesis and later chucking katchin at him. Anything even remotely important- like the healing and Instantaneous Movements, were all Kibito.

edited 20th May '17 11:52:26 AM by Zelenal

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#57341: May 20th 2017 at 12:24:33 PM

My bad. When Future Trunks said the Dance Ritual was used I assumed it was Future Old Kai who performed it to him. Shows how badly I recall details from 8 months ago.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#57342: May 20th 2017 at 12:53:51 PM

Come to think of it, our Kaioushin is kind of completely worthless. I can't readily recall him doing a damn thing besides paralyzing Gohan with his telekinesis and later chucking katchin at him. Anything even remotely important- like the healing and Instantaneous Movements, were all Kibito.

That's not really his fault. I mean, Buu kinda killed his boss and he was forced to take on a job he was never properly trained for. Also, he'd have prevented Buu from awakening if Goku and Vegeta didn't decided their dumb grudge match was more important, even if he badly underestimated the power of Saiyans.

In fact, the Saiyans (Gohan included) insistence on fighting one on one when they could have fought as a team and sped things up significantly was also to blame.

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#57343: May 20th 2017 at 1:10:42 PM

Except he's not a lesser Kai training for the position like Zamasu, he's a fully fledged Kaioushin. Yet, despite that, the only powers he displays are kiai- which is a move that's existed since early Dragon Ball- and telekinesis. The two utility powers that would make perfect sense for a Realm King God to have- healing (which he lost somehow) and Instantaneous Movements- are instead usable only by Kibito who, as far as we know, is a regular old Shinjin.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#57344: May 20th 2017 at 1:15:01 PM

Well then Blame Toriyama for making him a joke.

He has Instant Transmission now anyway (since he seemed to learn it after fusing with Kibito).

One Strip! One Strip!
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#57345: May 20th 2017 at 1:16:45 PM

Instantaneous Movement. Instant Transmission is a different, worse move.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#57346: May 20th 2017 at 1:26:02 PM

Right. That.

Anyway, he has it now. You're right he probably should have had it before. Not sure why he didn't. I guess Toriyama just wanted to drive home that he was completely ill equipped for the job.

One Strip! One Strip!
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#57347: May 20th 2017 at 4:18:56 PM

@Zelenal: It was straight up said that Shin never finished his training, even Old Kai points this out.

He was the youngest and least experienced of the Supreme Kais.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#57348: May 20th 2017 at 5:07:58 PM

So, basically, Goku did the same as in the Cell saga. Neat. At least, Vegeta is making some progress, and took inspiration by Goku rather than focusing on raw power.

Also, guess this opens the door for Blue Kaioken in the manga, if it is something other than a spammable technique in the anime.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#57349: May 20th 2017 at 5:11:13 PM

Except he's not a lesser Kai training for the position like Zamasu, he's a fully fledged Kaioushin. Yet, despite that, the only powers he displays are kiai- which is a move that's existed since early Dragon Ball- and telekinesis. The two utility powers that would make perfect sense for a Realm King God to have- healing (which he lost somehow) and Instantaneous Movements- are instead usable only by Kibito who, as far as we know, is a regular old Shinjin.

That's because they're an attendants' powers. Kaioshin simply didn't have those powers originally, which isn't on him being a failure or anything.

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#57350: May 20th 2017 at 5:15:28 PM

Some guy on Reddit realized that the stadium looks a top and the acronym for the tournament of power is also TOP. Another one of Toriyama's puns, I guess.


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