TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#57301: May 19th 2017 at 11:44:44 AM

What about Cell's self-destruct?

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#57302: May 19th 2017 at 11:46:14 AM

[up][up] I mean, Goku got Zenkais from shooting Kamehamehas into himself on the way to Namek.

He wasted so many Senzus.

The reason Vegeta couldn't get a Zenkai by hurting himself isn't that Zenkais don't come from self-harm. It's because Vegeta can't quite control himself enough to almost kill himself without going all the way and actually killing himself.

edited 19th May '17 11:47:00 AM by unnoun

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#57303: May 19th 2017 at 11:46:47 AM

Hmm, good point. I guess it's another instance of Toriyama being inconsistent.

[up]No, he just said it won't work if he does it himself, nothing about not controlling himself and overshooting.

edited 19th May '17 11:49:53 AM by Shlugo_the_great

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#57304: May 19th 2017 at 11:47:22 AM

It's not inconsistency per se. It's Vegeta's words when he said that being ambiguous and unclear.

But Goku had already shot the Kamehamehas at himself only a few chapters ago. So it being, "no Saiyan can get Zenkai from self-harm ever" wouldn't make sense.

Which leaves "Vegeta doesn't know how to self-harm good enough" as the only option.

[up] Right, but he doesn't say why it wouldn't work. Is the thing.

edited 19th May '17 11:50:56 AM by unnoun

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#57306: May 19th 2017 at 11:56:17 AM

...Which part?

Because. Like.

Hell, I'm going to quote the fucking omniscient narrator now.

Manga chapter 25. Of The Frieza Arc. In the Dragon Ball Full Color release.

Around and around he goes... Working his body and chi almost to death, and then refreshing himself by eating the Senzu...

...As the seven beans given to him by master Karin are already down to three.

Whether he realizes it or not, Goku is living and reliving one of the primal cycles of the Saiyans... Gaining strength by facing and overcoming death!

Before the narration text bubbles say all that, we see Goku firing Kamehamehas in the spaceship, and then curving them so they hit himself, and he gets bruised and scratched from it, then he eats a Senzu. And after he eats the Senzu, Goku says:

"PHEW!!"

"I thought I was finished with that one! Not much point in training if I die, is there?"

Before he takes the Senzu, he's on the ground, and has to crawl to the bean bag.

The part where Vegeta says:

"Beat me to within an inch of my life!!! It won't work if I try to kill myself!! You have to do it!"

Is listed as chapter 58 in the Dragon Ball Full Color edition I'm reading, so. That's.

...Huh, the Frieza saga took 84 manga chapters.

But anyway, 33 chapters between the two scenes.

edited 19th May '17 12:03:03 PM by unnoun

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#57307: May 19th 2017 at 12:01:13 PM

Training to the limit and intentionally trying to kill yourself seem like two different things to me.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#57308: May 19th 2017 at 12:03:24 PM

I assume there's a difference between lifting so much the muscles in your arms tear & intentionally beating your muscles with your fists.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#57309: May 19th 2017 at 12:04:51 PM

I mean, the narrator does say that Goku doesn't know that he's giving himself a Zenkai.

But what almost killed him was a kamehameha that he fired and then deliberately curved to hit himself with. And after it hit him he collapsed on the ground and had to crawl to the Senzu beans with one hand.

He doesn't seem all that strained just firing the kamehameha, or when he's kicking the air beforehand.

It's when he hits himself with the blast that he seems to get hurt.

And. Like, he says "I thought I was almost finished with that one" which is presumably referring to the Kamehameha he just hit himself with.

I mean, I dunno why Goku is hitting himself with Kamehamehas. He doesn't explicitly say that part.

I guess part of it is that hitting the ship's controls or the glass or the walls with a kamehameha would probably break something, and Goku's body is the only thing in the ship that might be able to withstand the blast.

Hitting the beam with another blast would create an explosion that could break something.

But frankly, if we start to make it all about what Vegeta and Goku are thinking about, to me that makes it too complicated.

It's just simpler to assume that Vegeta thinks he might screw up the "almost" part of almost dying.

edited 19th May '17 12:21:55 PM by unnoun

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#57310: May 19th 2017 at 12:23:22 PM

It's entirely possible that Goku realized that he got stronger after recovering from his battle with Vegeta, where he almost died, and it made him wonder if he could replicate that.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#57311: May 19th 2017 at 12:26:53 PM

Goku has really good control.

Like, if you look at the Buu Saga.

Goku hits at 186 points. Which is less than Krillin's 192.

Like, I dunno what that punch machine even measures, but Goku's control over his own strength puts him under Krillin.

I can easily buy Goku being better at deliberately almost killing himself than Vegeta.

...Like, Goku and Krillin are martial artists. Vegeta isn't. I'd put his vocation as. More along the lines of "butcher" or "exterminator".

It's entirely possible that he's never tried to almost kill anything before. He doesn't strike me as the type to hold back out of mercy or a desire not to actually kill the thing he's attacking. I don't think he's ever sparred before. Deliberately holding back so as not to kill.

Holding back because his target isn't worth his full might, or out of a desire to not use too much energy and wear himself out, I can imagine.

edited 19th May '17 12:49:12 PM by unnoun

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#57312: May 19th 2017 at 1:17:06 PM

Yeah. I recall Goku's lower score as well. I think I've seen the point you made about this control get brought up somewhere.

It makes sense. Between Super Saiyan, Kaioken, and the Spirit Bomb, Goku probably learned a lot about properly controlling energy in order to use the techniques properly.

Add 7 years worth of training with the god of the lowest class gods, and he's likely learned a butt load about restraint. Something he lacked as a kid.

One Strip! One Strip!
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#57313: May 19th 2017 at 1:22:16 PM

No, he had pretty good control as a kid, too. Not only could he (and Krillin) hold back enough to not turn most of the entrants for the Budoukai into mush, he could also hold back just enough to be about as strong as whoever he was fighting, only going all out for the other finalist.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#57314: May 19th 2017 at 1:29:58 PM

[up]

I don't know. In the earlier tournaments, there were quite a few times where Goku one shotted some poor chump hyped up to be a big deal and sent them flying like chumps.

Compared to how he beat King Chappa, Chi-chi, and Tien during the piccolo arc. He still pwned them, but in the case of the former too, with far less force than previously.

One Strip! One Strip!
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#57315: May 19th 2017 at 1:38:15 PM

Yeah but those guys were from the prelims where he didn't really care. He just held back enough to ensure he didn't turn them into mulch. During the finals, he absolutely held back in all of his fights to make it more fun for both himself and the person he was fighting. He only OHKO'd Chi-Chi because she said she'd reveal who she was if he won.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#57316: May 19th 2017 at 1:43:39 PM

But anyway. We have two instances of Saiyans/Bioandroids with Saiyan cells getting a Zenkai from self-inflicted injury, vs Vegeta saying he can't get a Zenkai if he tries to kill himself.

Like, again, what he says is that it won't work if he tries to kill himself. He doesn't say why.

...If I wanted to be pedantic, I'd say that. Like, what he says in the translation I've got is that it won't work if he tries to kill himself. And I have to say that I'm pretty sure the condition for a Zenkai is almost dying, not actually dying. If Vegeta tries to kill himself and succeeds, I feel like he's correct about the fact that the Zenkai wouldn't work.

So I think, based on what we see happen. Saiyans being able to get Zenkais after harming themselves is a thing.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#57317: May 19th 2017 at 6:21:19 PM

My interpretation wasn't that Vegeta would be too good at killing himself, but that he'd subconsciously hold back his attack because he doesn't want to die, and so wouldn't do enough damage to activate the Zenkai.

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#57318: May 19th 2017 at 6:48:24 PM

Goku getting injured training looked entirely accidental, that might be a factor.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#57319: May 19th 2017 at 6:52:27 PM

I mean, I'm not sure what the correct translation of it is but I can buy something like a zenkai not kicking in if it's not self-inflicted. It's like why most people can't tickle themselves, or it doesn't illicit as strong a response as when other people do it.

Ticklishness is thought to maybe be a defense mechanism to show you aren't aggressive, but your brain obviously isn't going to do the same response to self-action. I could see zenkais being the same, after all, no your body isn't going to make itself stronger to protect itself from you.

edited 19th May '17 6:52:46 PM by LSBK

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#57320: May 19th 2017 at 6:59:51 PM

You cant intentionally tickle yourself but unintentionally is easily done.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#57321: May 19th 2017 at 7:06:30 PM

[up][up][up] I'm sorry, what part of Goku arcing the Kamehameha around the ship and tanking it with his body repeatedly looked accidental?

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#57322: May 19th 2017 at 7:45:20 PM

He's trying to dodge it most of the time...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#57323: May 19th 2017 at 8:55:08 PM

[up]

I feel like a TFS reference is coming now.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#57324: May 19th 2017 at 9:00:34 PM

That would be too easy.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#57325: May 19th 2017 at 10:40:40 PM

So someone mentioned Cell getting infinity power from Kaioken and Zenkai. I used to wonder why he didn't just keep blowing himself up to gain more power. I believe it was Saiga who said that his survival was a fluke in the manga. The dub changed it to him being virtually indestructible though.

"Add 7 years worth of training with the god of the lowest class gods, and he's likely learned a butt load about restraint. Something he lacked as a kid."

Vaguely related, I liked that Kid Goku killed. Some people said his no kill stuff was a result of training with Kami.

edited 19th May '17 10:42:34 PM by Nikkolas


Total posts: 130,800
Top