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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#56576: May 5th 2017 at 11:39:26 AM

The return of Super Saiyan 4!

<Ducks a brick>

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#56577: May 5th 2017 at 11:41:25 AM

By ducking a brick would that make it a bad thing?

Would anyone be against the return of the Super Saiyan 4?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#56578: May 5th 2017 at 11:46:21 AM

There's always somebody hating something.

It's a law, not only of the internet, but the universe itself.

One Strip! One Strip!
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#56579: May 5th 2017 at 11:49:25 AM

Actually yeah, that's what I was getting at.

With that wildass hair Cauli has, it'd make sense for her to have some sort of SSJ4-esque equivalent, just like Kale has the LSSJ-equivalent.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#56580: May 5th 2017 at 12:17:41 PM

Too bad Toriyama had destroyed all tails.

None of the universe 6 saiyans have them.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#56581: May 5th 2017 at 12:22:10 PM

I mean, Vegeta lost his tail when he reverted back from his Super Saiyan 4 state, and Heroes has been making it so the Saiyans just randomly grow tails when they transform, as was the case for the Super Saiyan 4 trailers for Vegeta, Broly, and Gohan.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#56582: May 5th 2017 at 12:40:07 PM

He didn't lose his tail, he never had his tail when he turned SSJ4.

More like he grew a tail with the transformation.

edited 5th May '17 12:42:20 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#56583: May 5th 2017 at 2:08:32 PM

*opens a portal in time, and flings brick into the past, where Rob dares to suggest Super Saiyan 4 in Super*

Really though, the only two full-blooded female Saiyans introduced in the course of the show both having a unique and special Super Saiyan transformation seems a bit much. Just make Caulifla get SS1 and be stronger than Cabba in base, Cabba gets SS2, maybe during the tournament, and Kale is the weakest in base, but her Super Saiyan transformation is weird and absurdly powerful, stronger than SS2 Cabba or SS1 Caulifla.

edited 5th May '17 2:09:12 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#56584: May 5th 2017 at 2:41:01 PM

Huh Rob your right, theres always a hater.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#56585: May 5th 2017 at 3:56:10 PM

Didn't expect it to be time travelling hater.

You Could Have Used Your Powers for Good! Pushover. Instead you're just tossing bricks.

One Strip! One Strip!
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#56586: May 5th 2017 at 4:43:28 PM

It would appear that Super Saiyan God accomplished the seemingly impossible. It made people say, "now that I think about it, SSJ 4's design wasn't that bad".

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#56587: May 5th 2017 at 4:55:15 PM

[up] I never thought it was bad.

I think plenty of people liked it in-ironically before God came along & made it look better.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#56588: May 5th 2017 at 5:14:17 PM

I don't really think the design was bad - it good look really good or really bad depending on how on-model GT was that day.

I think it's a little too random to serve as the next transformation, but I'd level that against God as well. God is just kind of boring and being too on-the-nose with the skinniness, Toriyama has done Muscles Are Meaningless much better before and by the time we got to God it was just played out.

However, I don't like the concept of Super Saiyan 4 because the tails (and by extension, Oozaru) were meant to become obsolete. So bringing them back for the final transformation might initially make sense (it satisfies people who wondered why they just disappeared) but doesn't actually gel with why the tails originally disappeared.

My ideal would be for it to be established that the Saiyan tails/Oozaru went the way of Ultimate Gohan's Super Saiyan forms: they got baked into the base forms for the power without the need to transform. It'd be part of how Goku/Vegeta suddenly got HUGE zenkai in the later Freeza arc, as they permanently got the 10x Oozaru boost in their base form. It would also be part of why the tailless hybrids have such a head start in strength - they are born without tails, and born with the Oozaru boost already baked in.

That's my headcanon, anyway. The series is moving away from the 'transformations are redundant' stance, but I do find it interested that U6 Saiyans have evolved beyond tails entirely.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#56589: May 5th 2017 at 5:21:08 PM

Wasn't the entire reason simply because Toriyama just didn't want to draw them anymore? If so, then any further line of thought is probably just overthinking it.

Plus, I like the idea of merging the two separate transformations of the Saiyans, the Great Ape and Super Saiyan lines, into one ultimate form; even better if it were actually equal to Super Saiyan God (at least the movie version), and represented the two paths a Saiyan could take to go beyond their natural limit, i.e., Super Saiyan 3: the primal strength of 4; and the divine control of God.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#56590: May 5th 2017 at 5:25:48 PM

[up]That said, SSJ 4 had too much Oozaru and not enough Super Saiyan for my tastes. If the form had blonde hair (but not fur), then I'd be okay with it. Still, despite my earlier comment, I like SSJ 4's design overall.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#56591: May 5th 2017 at 5:26:45 PM

We've never received a meta reason for why Toriyama cut the tails/Oozaru.

But the in-universe explanation given by Toriyama is that they just become a hindrance once you reach a certain level of power.

I don't have an issue with combining transformations but I like stuff like phasing out old transformations because it prevents power up bloat. They've got too many transformations as it is, trimming some if you're going to add new ones really helps. That's what I thought they were going to do with God, and they kind of have, but not explicitly - the previous forms have all shown up again so it's not clear what they intend there.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#56592: May 5th 2017 at 5:28:35 PM

He didn't want to draw them anymore, so I don't mind if the tails are used for a transformation in fan works and whatnot.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#56593: May 5th 2017 at 5:31:36 PM

"They become a hindrance", is such weird/flimsy reasoning. Once they train the extra sensitivity away, it's basically just having another limb to do things with/hit stuff with.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#56594: May 5th 2017 at 5:32:18 PM

I always loved the tails, its always cool seeing them swing around or used to make characters looks stylish like when SS 4 Gogeta does that mid-air meditation pose & it hangs down.

I did always took the SS 4 transformation as the Saiyan reaching deep down into a primal strength, going ancestral from before even the regular Super Saiyan transformation.

[up] I mean most of them just have it coiled around their waists so its not that bad unless your Raditz.

edited 5th May '17 5:33:06 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#56595: May 5th 2017 at 5:32:59 PM

It is kind of flimsy but it's still a racial weakness. An individual may be able to compensate for it but the racial adaptation doesn't account for that.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#56596: May 5th 2017 at 5:36:36 PM

[up]

A weakness that can be overcome through training. Something Goku, Vegeta, and Nappa all did.

This video (which I believe I've posted before), basically explains Toriyama's reasons for ditching the tails. Do I like it? Not really, but it's his story, and it wouldn't be the first time he did what he wanted to make things easier.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#56597: May 5th 2017 at 5:40:22 PM

It should also be mentioned that Super Saiyan Blue is basically Super's 4, as both of them are buildups from a previous form (Golden Oozaru and Super Saiyan God), both of them are technically separate branches off of the Super Saiyan form (4 was said to be as such in the GT Perfect Files), and both of them basically became Goku's go-to transformation for pretty much everything that ends up coming up past the point they get it.

edited 5th May '17 5:40:56 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#56598: May 5th 2017 at 5:41:05 PM

I literally addressed that? "An individual may be able to compensate for that"?

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#56599: May 5th 2017 at 5:47:28 PM

Except Goku compensated it both way, both in learning how to fight and move without his tail so he'd be able to do so if he ever lost it, and in strengthening it to the point where grabbing it did nothing to him. It must be stressed that the tail is a muscle, and like a muscle it can be strengthened by training it.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#56600: May 5th 2017 at 5:48:55 PM

The only people we see get weakened by it is Kid-Goku, Kid-Gohan & ...... Raditz.

Everyone else functioned just fine.

[down] Agreed.

edited 5th May '17 5:50:25 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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