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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#56051: Apr 18th 2017 at 4:22:12 PM

The fact of the matter is that the time limit was unnecessary, it cheapened the sacrifice Vegeta and Goku made when they decided their existence was less important than the lives of their families, it makes no sense (again, Old Kai + Old Witch, they've been fused for years since he got out of the sword and likely for a very long time before) and it makes Vegetto functionally identical to Gogeta. Why didn't they just do the goddamn fusion dance, if you were gonna shove a stupid time limit into it? There's no reason why it needs to be other than 'because'.

See, I don't really mind the Time Limit. Do I think they needed it? No. They could have just used the Dragon balls (since they revealed the balls can undo the permanent Kai fusion) and just come up with a reason for why being inside Buu broke the Potarra Fusion and not the Dance Fusion (which ended on it's own).

My issue is that they ran out of power and unfused early. The time limit is a bitch on it's own, but giving Potarra fusion a power limit as means there really is no difference from dance fusion (which can also end early if too much power is used). Simply put, it's both together that gets my goat.

I think Toriyama does too many Awesome, but Impractical techniques with such huge drawbacks that they become utterly unviable to be honest. Well maybe not unviable. Most of them only have issues due to the enemies they fight, but it would be nice to have a technique that didn't have some huge drawback that bites them in the ass at the most dramatic time.

As for the so called spoiler video...would that actually work? I mean, I think the technique Tien uses to block Kamehameha's is effective regardless of power, but I'm not 100% sure.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#56052: Apr 18th 2017 at 4:31:44 PM

I mean, there's nothing stopping anyone from just having Goku and Vegeta do the fusion dance and make Gogeta "canon". Toriyama could even say the existing design is what he would look like if he was really afraid of stepping on anyone's toes.

Really, with Goku and Vegeta being basically equal in strength, now seems like a better time than any to have them do that, if you're looking for fusion.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#56053: Apr 18th 2017 at 4:33:13 PM

But apparently it was easier to throw an unnecessary retcon into the mix.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#56054: Apr 18th 2017 at 4:34:54 PM

Also Shin & Kibito kinda proves that Potara fusions are not truly permanent & that there are ways of undoing it.

edited 18th Apr '17 4:40:28 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#56055: Apr 18th 2017 at 4:43:16 PM

Well I guess they wanted it to end with Trunks getting the "final" blow, since it's his arc and last hurrah, so they had to have Vegito fail at a dramatic moment to set that up. Sure they could just use Gogeta for the same purpose, but Vegito has much more hype potential. Fusion Reborn was one of the better dbz movies, but Gogeta only showed up for about two minutes, while Vegito had a much longer and more impressive showing. (plus the Kai earrings were already right there)

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#56056: Apr 18th 2017 at 5:04:21 PM

Maybe the witch that fused with Elder Kaioshin was also a Shin-jin. It would explain what she was doing on the Kaioshin world.

Lampodigenio Insert cool sentence here from Somewhere in Western Europe Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Insert cool sentence here
#56057: Apr 18th 2017 at 5:06:13 PM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#56058: Apr 18th 2017 at 5:08:04 PM

And I just got thumped for saying "you might as well admit you've got nothing".

I think that says enough by itself. Especially when you consider that the thump is for switching the conversation from the topic to a troper even though my post literally was "that argument is stupid".

My point still stands: If it's going to be functionally identical to the fusion dance, why does the Potara fusion even need to exist in the first place?

edited 18th Apr '17 5:09:16 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#56059: Apr 18th 2017 at 5:09:45 PM

If the witch was also a Kaioshin she'd probably know what the earrings were and why she shouldn't have put one on. She also probably wouldn't brazenly steal something from her superior right in front of him.

edited 18th Apr '17 5:11:58 PM by LSBK

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#56060: Apr 18th 2017 at 5:12:07 PM

I don't think Freeza destroying the Planet Vegeta on orders is mutually exclusive from destroying the race because of his fear of them uprising. It just means he had Beerus' okay.

edited 18th Apr '17 5:12:55 PM by Hobgoblin

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#56061: Apr 18th 2017 at 5:15:39 PM

Raditz saying that their planet was destroyed like 5 years ago does count, though.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#56062: Apr 18th 2017 at 6:24:13 PM

My point still stands: If it's going to be functionally identical to the fusion dance, why does the Potara fusion even need to exist in the first place?

Because Toriyama didn't want to use the Toei-created Gogeta. Seriously, he made it up on that moment, made up differences, defused Goku and Vegeta without any explanation, then made up an explanation 20 years later.

edited 18th Apr '17 6:29:00 PM by Eriorguez

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#56063: Apr 18th 2017 at 6:49:39 PM

It was never really permanent anyway, since obviously Vegito didn't stay fused the first time either.

Besides, there was already precedent for the Potara earings working differently for Kaioshin.

I mean look at Kibito Kai, it was basically Shin but taller and his personality is the dominant one.

Same with Old Kai, there's no trace of the Witch's personality.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#56064: Apr 18th 2017 at 6:51:30 PM

Both of those could (and think usually were) handwaved away as the person who was much stronger taking control. It was never mentioned as being a Kaioshin thing, and as I far as I can tell still hasn't been attributed to that.

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#56065: Apr 18th 2017 at 7:03:40 PM

By fans maybe, but not in the story. I don't remember any character saying Shin's personality being dominant because he was stronger.

In any case, their fusions was shown to be different from how Vegito worked. So it's not that out there to say that the rules are different when a Kai uses them compared to when mortals use the Potara.

Alright so what is with that new female Saiyan design?

I think that's just her concept design. It's not that different from the base form we saw in the anime.

edited 18th Apr '17 7:06:04 PM by Cortez

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#56066: Apr 18th 2017 at 7:05:20 PM

I didn't say in the story, but it's not like that would be unusual. And no attention was paid to it, and it still hasn't been payed to it, as being something unique to the Kaioshin.

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#56067: Apr 18th 2017 at 7:06:54 PM

Gowasu straight up said it different for mortals, he's the one that mentioned the time limit.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#56068: Apr 18th 2017 at 7:08:25 PM

Yes, in reference to the time-limit, and nothing else. If you want to think of one of them remaining dominant being a sign that it's different from Kaioshin, fine, but if the story doesn't say that, the story doesn't say that.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#56069: Apr 18th 2017 at 7:08:40 PM

Now that I think about it maybe they should have kept Vegito fused for a while after the Future Trunks Saga if only for the potential humorous plots they can make if he replaced Goku & Vegeta.

Off the top of my head I can imagine Chu-Chi & Bulma fighting over who gets to be his wife & spend more time with him, Vegito constantly badgering Beerus for a rematch & then challenging Whis to see if he could beat him or going to meet Zeno only to discover that the latter no longer recognizes him due to being a different person.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#56070: Apr 18th 2017 at 7:12:57 PM

This is simply a Voodoo Shark.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#56071: Apr 18th 2017 at 7:30:56 PM

I finished the manga. Man, so nostalgic. I'm going to make some observations:

According to Old Kai, the monster that sealed him on the sword was weaker than Buu. Either Buu was stronger than Beerus without the hakai, or Old Kai was lying through his teeth.

Vegeta saying Carrot is number 1 was cathartic.

I forgot how cute Oob was. Amazing that he was formerly the monster known as Buu.

Apparently, kaioshins die too. Old Kai said he has probably 1000 years to live. That explains why Gowasu is so old.

Oh, and I heard the thing about the fusions... the manga keeps disappointing me everyday. Also, Toyotaro traced something AGAIN, this time, Cell pose when he was almost destroyed by Vegeta final flash. Jesus, Toyotaro can't write drama for shit, the only good thing he did was Gowasu and the Babarians, and only that. Come on, now Zamasu isn't a true Kaioshin? We both saw he became formerly one when wearing Gowasu earrings, I can't believe the anime was consistent on this subject.

Oh sure, he isn't a true Supreme Kai because he stole the title, but considering how becoming a kaioshin has only been explained with "putting some earrings", this subject pisses me off.

edited 18th Apr '17 7:34:11 PM by Tomodachi

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#56072: Apr 18th 2017 at 7:35:30 PM

What's wrong with Zamsu being a usurper?

edited 18th Apr '17 7:41:23 PM by VeryMelon

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#56073: Apr 18th 2017 at 7:40:58 PM

Maybe i'm over-reacting a bit, but for me, Zamasu being an usurper still makes him a Supreme Kai, since only those can wear those time rings. After all, Gowasu and Manga! Shin used the thing. Since Black is wearing the earings too, is easy to suggest he is technically a Kaioshin despite being a mortal.

Maybe Vegetto is doing a reason you suck speech instead of being technical? I swear, Manga! Black already disappoints me, and Manga! M.Zamasu made a storm out of the strongest metal in the universe, so i'm probably disappointed of him too.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#56074: Apr 18th 2017 at 7:42:14 PM

Alright that's fair. I don't personally care too much either way, but I'm not gonna tell you you're wrong.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#56075: Apr 18th 2017 at 7:57:24 PM

Yea, even if he stole the title, him wearing the earrings should still make him a Supreme Kai, so no idea why he's affected by the time

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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