It's not surprising to me. There are several reasons why, from a writing standpoint, he would want to change things up - the most obvious being simply that he wanted to write a plot (and/or plots) with all these characters, and the previous system made it difficult, so he did away with it.
While I agree he could have handled that transition better (Super should have been leading up to this sort of shakeup from the beginning, imo - especially given all the new transformations) I can't fault him for wanting to do so. Toriyama never struck me as the kind of writer who, if he really felt he had to make that decision, would choose details over characters.
edited 17th Apr '17 10:02:53 AM by KnownUnknown
The way things are going they could do that if they wanted to, but that's not the case.
People liked pretending that Tien could catch up or was more badass then he really was and so Super is giving people what they want. Where as people's fun from Yamcha comes from mocking him and sometimes ignoring how things actually were to do so, hence he's not involved.
edited 17th Apr '17 1:18:45 PM by LSBK
Wouldn't really say Yamucha was necessary to any events from the start DBZ onwards...
The pope usually talks about how solidly tight DB's story is, and removing anything could change the events of the plot to negative for the protagonist.
But Yamucha fighting the Saibaman and Android 20 could actually be removed, nothing would change.
They would have to be ignoring his Dragon Ball feats, for which he has few.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.Near the end of the Pilaf arc we see him grab a hunk of rock and carve a sword out of it with his fists. In almost any other work that would be beyond Crazy Awesome.
edited 17th Apr '17 2:22:23 PM by TyeDyeWildebeest
No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!I honestly think that the Freiza soldiers that use hand blasters instead of normal Ki attacks probably aren't all that strong, and I can see Roshi actually doing well against them even taking RF into account.
Watch Symphogear![]()
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Isn't that kinda accurate...?
(After checking)
Okay, the Saibaman 2-shots him...
You see the typical trading blows thing that never means anything and the thing manages to throw Yamucha before getting knocked.
edited 17th Apr '17 2:49:56 PM by randomness4
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.![]()
It was a ring laser. Has much more precision.
edited 17th Apr '17 2:49:43 PM by Demongodofchaos2
Watch SymphogearSo, I been reading the Dragon Ball Manga for a while, and while I got a nostalgic attack, I also noticed a lot of flaws into it that were fixed and expanded in the anime.
For example: Number 16 love for nature and birds is more of an informed attribute (of the "Tell, don't show" case), and his death doesn't have the same kind of punch (I see him more as "That robot guy" than "That nature loving robot"), Vegeta didn't abandon Earth and then came back (So he wore that pink shirt for some reason), and Goten and Goku never hugged the first time they met. The super saiyan transformation is also very anticlimactic, is just 3 panels. Vegeta and Gohan would beat Goku transformation in the manga.
The time skips are also kinda annoying. Toei did a great job at creating some filler material (expecially funny material since the mood between the saiyans, Frieza, and Cell was too serious for a series that is 60% lighthearted.)
Also, jeez, Cell was more of a Card Carrying bad guy than I remember, His purpose is kinda dull too, at least Majin Buu has the excuse of being an eldritch monster: what excuse does Cell has? "Oh, I was created to destroy you, but other than that, I don't have much of a personality besides being smug, something Frieza already was". I still love his design though, and him mocking Vegeta was great.
Not complaining, just an observation, I still need to finish the Buu saga, but I got to say: the lighter mood is really welcome.
edited 17th Apr '17 9:13:31 PM by Tomodachi
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.No, i'm pretty sure Android 16 development was flawed, since we didn't see him loving nature and the birds. Just because he is telling me doesn't mean is good, I need to see it. And this is an easy example, since comics are still a visual medium, and Toriyama has done the "Show, not telling" thing very well in the past.
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.I didn't comment on that. I haven't read that part of the manga so I wouldn't know, but I did disagree with other things you said, and gave an example of such.
And for another, I'm not sure how you think the anime improved on Cell. Cell's motivation was by his own admission very simple and straightforward. He didn't need some grand plan or design. Which actually kind of liked, there were no pretensions on his part like with Frieza.
edited 17th Apr '17 9:19:59 PM by LSBK
My apologies on that, I was talking about Cell in general, not about him being a flaw in the manga. I think both versions handled him very well, just that I thought he was more complex (I forgot a lot of details! I'm sorry!)
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

He did it with Freeza, didn't he? Either he comes up with an excuse or he doesn't, but I do think writing the character strengths inconsistently is coming from him and being exacerbated by Toei.
Forget what happened in the manga - it's been twenty years since Toriyama finished writing that.