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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#55926: Apr 17th 2017 at 6:08:02 AM

He did it with Freeza, didn't he? Either he comes up with an excuse or he doesn't, but I do think writing the character strengths inconsistently is coming from him and being exacerbated by Toei.

Forget what happened in the manga - it's been twenty years since Toriyama finished writing that.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#55927: Apr 17th 2017 at 6:29:50 AM

This is why everyone blaming Toei and acting like Toyotaro is some godsend never made much sense to me. They're both following Toriyama's outline.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#55928: Apr 17th 2017 at 7:33:52 AM

See, that opinion assumes the majority of Super fans are manga readers when the reality is anything but. Unless you're deliberately going to places with that much dislike for the anime, you just can't say that's true.

edited 17th Apr '17 8:57:49 AM by VeryMelon

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#55929: Apr 17th 2017 at 9:59:05 AM

I find it hard to believe he'd just change his mind when he put so much effort into making it clear the humans were totally outmatched previously even at their best.

It's not surprising to me. There are several reasons why, from a writing standpoint, he would want to change things up - the most obvious being simply that he wanted to write a plot (and/or plots) with all these characters, and the previous system made it difficult, so he did away with it.

While I agree he could have handled that transition better (Super should have been leading up to this sort of shakeup from the beginning, imo - especially given all the new transformations) I can't fault him for wanting to do so. Toriyama never struck me as the kind of writer who, if he really felt he had to make that decision, would choose details over characters.

edited 17th Apr '17 10:02:53 AM by KnownUnknown

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#55930: Apr 17th 2017 at 12:06:59 PM

One thing that I always found funny, is that when Goku said that he had a replacement in mind to fight Cell, the next chapter had a cover asking who it would be, with all the characters present as apparent options, including Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Yamcha.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#55931: Apr 17th 2017 at 12:22:00 PM

Oh god, can you imagine everyone's reactions if Goku called Yamcha out to fight Cell? Especially from Yamcha himself? [lol]

edited 17th Apr '17 12:22:23 PM by Shlugo_the_great

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#55933: Apr 17th 2017 at 1:00:25 PM

Super Saiyan God Yamcha would only nominally as powerful as Nappa! [lol]

"Mai waifu."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#55934: Apr 17th 2017 at 1:07:08 PM

Yamcha does have a lot of hidden potential.

Unlock it & he could be as strong as Beerus or even stronger. tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#55935: Apr 17th 2017 at 1:17:25 PM

The way things are going they could do that if they wanted to, but that's not the case.

People liked pretending that Tien could catch up or was more badass then he really was and so Super is giving people what they want. Where as people's fun from Yamcha comes from mocking him and sometimes ignoring how things actually were to do so, hence he's not involved.

edited 17th Apr '17 1:18:45 PM by LSBK

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#55936: Apr 17th 2017 at 1:26:08 PM

Wouldn't really say Yamucha was necessary to any events from the start DBZ onwards...

The pope usually talks about how solidly tight DB's story is, and removing anything could change the events of the plot to negative for the protagonist.

But Yamucha fighting the Saibaman and Android 20 could actually be removed, nothing would change.

They would have to be ignoring his Dragon Ball feats, for which he has few.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#55937: Apr 17th 2017 at 2:22:15 PM

Near the end of the Pilaf arc we see him grab a hunk of rock and carve a sword out of it with his fists. In almost any other work that would be beyond Crazy Awesome.

edited 17th Apr '17 2:22:23 PM by TyeDyeWildebeest

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#55938: Apr 17th 2017 at 2:25:30 PM

Besides that I meant more distorting how things happened, like saying that the Saibaman "oneshot" him instead of it taking him (and everyone else not named Vegeta) off guard because he thought it was down for the count.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#55939: Apr 17th 2017 at 2:42:57 PM

Yeah, it's easy to forget because of the memes that Yamcha actually handily beat the Saibaman and it only went for the surprise Suicide attack because Vegeta threatened to kill it for losing.

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#55940: Apr 17th 2017 at 2:43:56 PM

I honestly think that the Freiza soldiers that use hand blasters instead of normal Ki attacks probably aren't all that strong, and I can see Roshi actually doing well against them even taking RF into account.

Watch Symphogear
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#55941: Apr 17th 2017 at 2:47:36 PM

[up] Don't forget one of those handblasters was able to knock Goku out of his Super Saiyan Blue form. tongue

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#55942: Apr 17th 2017 at 2:48:51 PM

[up][up][up][up]Isn't that kinda accurate...?

(After checking)

Okay, the Saibaman 2-shots him...

You see the typical trading blows thing that never means anything and the thing manages to throw Yamucha before getting knocked.

edited 17th Apr '17 2:49:56 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#55943: Apr 17th 2017 at 2:49:19 PM

[up][up]It was a ring laser. Has much more precision. tongue

edited 17th Apr '17 2:49:43 PM by Demongodofchaos2

Watch Symphogear
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#55944: Apr 17th 2017 at 9:06:53 PM

So, I been reading the Dragon Ball Manga for a while, and while I got a nostalgic attack, I also noticed a lot of flaws into it that were fixed and expanded in the anime.

For example: Number 16 love for nature and birds is more of an informed attribute (of the "Tell, don't show" case), and his death doesn't have the same kind of punch (I see him more as "That robot guy" than "That nature loving robot"), Vegeta didn't abandon Earth and then came back (So he wore that pink shirt for some reason), and Goten and Goku never hugged the first time they met. The super saiyan transformation is also very anticlimactic, is just 3 panels. Vegeta and Gohan would beat Goku transformation in the manga.

The time skips are also kinda annoying. Toei did a great job at creating some filler material (expecially funny material since the mood between the saiyans, Frieza, and Cell was too serious for a series that is 60% lighthearted.)

Also, jeez, Cell was more of a Card Carrying bad guy than I remember, His purpose is kinda dull too, at least Majin Buu has the excuse of being an eldritch monster: what excuse does Cell has? "Oh, I was created to destroy you, but other than that, I don't have much of a personality besides being smug, something Frieza already was". I still love his design though, and him mocking Vegeta was great.

Not complaining, just an observation, I still need to finish the Buu saga, but I got to say: the lighter mood is really welcome.

edited 17th Apr '17 9:13:31 PM by Tomodachi

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#55945: Apr 17th 2017 at 9:12:44 PM

A lot of what your described aren't flaws, just differences inherent in different mediums.

And as for expanded things, I mean, the Goku and Goten hug in the anime is supposed to be touching, and it is, but at the same time it always came off as out of place for the situation.

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#55946: Apr 17th 2017 at 9:15:55 PM

No, i'm pretty sure Android 16 development was flawed, since we didn't see him loving nature and the birds. Just because he is telling me doesn't mean is good, I need to see it. And this is an easy example, since comics are still a visual medium, and Toriyama has done the "Show, not telling" thing very well in the past.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#55947: Apr 17th 2017 at 9:17:45 PM

I didn't comment on that. I haven't read that part of the manga so I wouldn't know, but I did disagree with other things you said, and gave an example of such.

And for another, I'm not sure how you think the anime improved on Cell. Cell's motivation was by his own admission very simple and straightforward. He didn't need some grand plan or design. Which actually kind of liked, there were no pretensions on his part like with Frieza.

edited 17th Apr '17 9:19:59 PM by LSBK

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#55948: Apr 17th 2017 at 9:21:54 PM

My apologies on that, I was talking about Cell in general, not about him being a flaw in the manga. I think both versions handled him very well, just that I thought he was more complex (I forgot a lot of details! I'm sorry!)

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#55949: Apr 17th 2017 at 9:23:30 PM

Well, there's no real right or wrong with discussions like this anyway. I'm not surprised to hear the anime expanded on 16's nature loving.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#55950: Apr 17th 2017 at 9:26:41 PM

Wait how is a father hugging the son he never knew he had when he came back from the dead for the day to hang out with his friends & family outta place?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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