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MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#55751: Apr 12th 2017 at 6:07:31 PM

Didn't the anime hint that Cold was stronger? Because if so, it's not completely fanon.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#55752: Apr 12th 2017 at 6:07:49 PM

@slimcoder, I dropped it months ago, so dunno.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#55753: Apr 12th 2017 at 6:09:04 PM

[up][up]The anime getting it wrong isn't any different from fans getting it wrong.

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#55754: Apr 12th 2017 at 6:10:28 PM

Something can't be fanon if it's introduced by official media.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#55755: Apr 12th 2017 at 6:12:44 PM

Sure it can. The anime gets things wrong all the time. You've been in this thread long enough to have seen constant complaints about it.

The anime saying something to the effect about Cold being Frieza's equal or superior doesn't change that Cold admitted Frieza was stronger than him. It just means the anime had people working on it who assumed Frieza's father must be stronger than him, because that's a common misconception.

edited 12th Apr '17 6:20:32 PM by LSBK

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#55756: Apr 12th 2017 at 6:15:24 PM

Boy was Future Trunks strong when he curb-stomped them.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#55757: Apr 12th 2017 at 6:17:56 PM

I don't recall the anime ever saying Cold was stronger. It just said that "two enormous power levels" are on the ship, and Vegeta's all like "Oh, the other one's probably Freeza's father". And that's about the extent of the exposition we get on the matter.

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#55758: Apr 12th 2017 at 6:18:09 PM

I heard that Trunks's fake power level when he first appeared (5) was the last numerical power level to be stated in Dragon Ball.

I assume that's true, since I can't think of any later examples.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#55759: Apr 12th 2017 at 6:25:32 PM

I'm pretty sure it wasn't - Babidi also had a numerical, and fairly nonsensical, powerlevel system.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#55760: Apr 12th 2017 at 6:27:01 PM

Yeah, but Killis don't count since we're not sure what they actually mean.

How high is <insert numerical value here> Killis compared to the last bunch of power levels we saw on Namek?

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#55761: Apr 12th 2017 at 6:28:40 PM

At least Babidi's system actually had units; the scouter based ones had jackshit in that regard.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#55762: Apr 12th 2017 at 6:45:19 PM

[up] Power levels are ridiculous and confusing. It stopped being useful after the Frieza arc.

"Mai waifu."
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#55763: Apr 12th 2017 at 10:30:33 PM

According to the wiki:

Cold's power is not mentioned in the manga but has been mentioned in the the anime. In the dub when Frieza and Cold were landing on Earth, both Gohan and Krillin sensed Cold's power, stating it was higher than Mecha Frieza's (though Mecha Frieza was heavily suppressed at the time), in the original Japanese version it is simply mentioned that Cold had an absurdly large ki.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#55764: Apr 12th 2017 at 11:31:26 PM

Math has taught me that it doesn't work at absurdly large numbers.

I'll use that reasoning to explain why power levels don't work once they get high enough.

Also I'd to use the law of diminishing returns to explain power levels. Meaning that after a certain point for every unit of power one goes up, they increasingly get less and less power out of it.

Now training only pushes you along what I like to call the ki production function curve .

The Super Saiyan forms and God Ki shifts the curve upwards.

Here's a graph. The x input is training time. The y production is power.

And the variables that shift the curve upward are transformations.

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#55765: Apr 13th 2017 at 6:35:52 AM

I wonder why Toriyama made Goku and Beerus so close in power in the movie, said that he doesn't want Goku to surpass Beerus, and then gives him a new transformation that further closes the gap.

Why don't just have Goku be a 7, Beerus be a 15, and Whis be a 30? That way, Goku has room to become a 10 or something, but still ultimately be weaker.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#55766: Apr 13th 2017 at 6:39:27 AM

Because that was never really meant to be an accurate measure of power.

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#55767: Apr 13th 2017 at 4:41:27 PM

That ranking would make more sense if it was logarithmic, aka 7 is 10 times stronger than 6. My headcanon is that it is logarithmic, so Beerus is 10,000 times stronger than SSG Goku in their battle, and Whis is 100,000 times stronger than him

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#55768: Apr 13th 2017 at 5:23:30 PM

But the difference in strength was originally supposed to be quite small, since in the very same answer Toriyama said that Goku could possibly close it up if the fight went on long enough.

DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#55769: Apr 13th 2017 at 6:19:10 PM

I get the feeling that when Battle of Gods was written, nobody expected Super to become a thing, nor that Beerus would become a main character in it. If Toriyama had known he had more story to write, the power gap would probably have been a lot larger.

The Retcon in Super supports this: rather than saying he used 70% of his power, Beerus claims that he went all-out, but Whis later privately says something like "You liar. You barely used 10%."

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#55770: Apr 13th 2017 at 6:46:49 PM

I wonder why Toriyama made Goku and Beerus so close in power in the movie, said that he doesn't want Goku to surpass Beerus, and then gives him a new transformation that further closes the gap.

Why don't just have Goku be a 7, Beerus be a 15, and Whis be a 30? That way, Goku has room to become a 10 or something, but still ultimately be weaker.

Because that transformation still didn't let him surpass Beerus. Goku was a 6 to Beerus' 10, and with the new transformation Vegeta and Goku combined could fight evenly with Beerus. Toriyama didn't say that Goku would never surpass Beerus, just that he didn't have plans for it. I think Goku would have made gradual improvements until he caught up with, and surpassed, Beerus. If movies continued to come every 2-3 years and did not cover a huge amount of content, I think that would take quite some time.

I definitely prefer that to the gap being made so large they can continue to have Goku getting huge power ups without ever changing the status quo.

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#55771: Apr 13th 2017 at 7:02:08 PM

I'm wondering what else can they pull out of their asses to make Goku somehow become even with (or even surpass) Beerus. Super Saiyan God rainbow x infinity?

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#55772: Apr 13th 2017 at 7:04:16 PM

Toriyama saying he had no plans for Goku to ever surpass Beerus happened before the Future Trunks arc, right? It's not impossible that Goku surpasses Beerus in this arc, and I think Vegetto and Fused Zamasu were stronger than him, considering that Goku and Vegeta working together might be able to beat Beerus, and Potara fusion is WAY more of an increase than just A + B.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#55773: Apr 13th 2017 at 7:08:16 PM

Can't Beerus train though?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#55774: Apr 13th 2017 at 7:11:25 PM

[up][up] Didn't Super omit the line about Goku and Vegeta working together being able to fight evenly with Beerus? I know they added one about Goku being a 3 metre tree to Beerus' 100 metre tree.

[up] He could. I should have mentioned before, but if things had gone on the way they were presented in Resurrection F, I would have also liked to see Beerus start training when Goku/Vegeta get close to him in power so they surpass Beerus' original level before they actually catch up and surpass the current Beerus. So it's not just "Goku/Vegeta will never reach Beerus" or "Goku/Vegeta will keep improving until they eventually surpass a static Beerus".

edited 13th Apr '17 7:13:17 PM by Saiga

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#55775: Apr 13th 2017 at 7:19:00 PM

The Retcon in Super supports this: rather than saying he used 70% of his power, Beerus claims that he went all-out, but Whis later privately says something like "You liar. You barely used 10%."

Geeze, that retcon feels especially shameless after Beerus talked about using 10% of his power against rage boost Vegeta earlier in the arc.


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