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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#55701: Apr 11th 2017 at 10:26:13 AM

I just had a thought. In the anime (not sure if it happened in the manga) Bulma told Oolong to change into a Scooter for her to ride, but he wasn't strong enough to carry her weight (in addition to only being able to change for five minutes anyway), rendering such a change useless (in true Toriyama fashion).

But we know Puar is a far better shape changer than Oolong (not bound by the five minutes rule and all), so would he be able to transform into a vehicle to carry multiple people?

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#55702: Apr 11th 2017 at 3:07:32 PM

I think Puar is a bit stronger than Oolong, as indicated by him smacking him down when the pig tried to escape, but I'm not sure if Puar's strong enough to become a fuctioning vehicle.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#55703: Apr 11th 2017 at 3:37:56 PM

They can definitely become functional vehicles. How useful they are in that form tho...

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#55704: Apr 11th 2017 at 5:20:32 PM

Well yeah. The only example we saw was Oolong, who sucks at transforming. Plus most characters have either Capsules, can fly, or before that, had a flying cloud to move about on.

We'll likely never know for sure, because Puar never tried.

One Strip! One Strip!
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#55705: Apr 11th 2017 at 5:29:09 PM

It's odd how a pig who can transform into a living suit of armor, a pair of scissors, and a rocket can be said to "suck" at transforming.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#55706: Apr 11th 2017 at 5:44:48 PM

Really, the only difference between Oolong and Puar is the time limit and that Puar appears to be a bit stronger.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#55707: Apr 11th 2017 at 5:50:06 PM

The time limit is a pretty significant difference.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#55708: Apr 11th 2017 at 5:51:55 PM

Oolong never finished his training cause he got kicked out of shape-shifter school right?

If so then he's just incompletely trained then suck at it.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#55709: Apr 11th 2017 at 5:56:40 PM

Oolong got kicked out of shapeshifter kindergarten for stealing a teacher's panties.

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#55710: Apr 11th 2017 at 7:38:16 PM

Anyone ever notice how many of the villains are cowardly? High or low functioning, does Toriyama have an Author Appeal or to get some sort of catharsis?

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#55711: Apr 11th 2017 at 7:45:30 PM

I mean, no? Villains being cowardly it hardly something to take note off. And that depends on what you define as "cowardly".

edited 11th Apr '17 7:46:01 PM by LSBK

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#55712: Apr 11th 2017 at 8:18:03 PM

I'm not sure about cowardly. Several of them are sore losers, to be sure.

The most cowardly I can think of off the top of my head is King Cold, who is only shown attacking when he believes he has an advantage and attempts to weasel out of a fight when he doesn't. Though we got more cowardly villains pre-Raditz, iirc.

edited 11th Apr '17 8:18:41 PM by KnownUnknown

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#55713: Apr 12th 2017 at 2:26:51 AM

Would you consider attacking a man while his back is turned cowardly?

I guess, that does depend on what you personally consider "cowardly" or not.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#55714: Apr 12th 2017 at 3:16:54 AM

One man's cowardice is another man's pragmatism.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#55715: Apr 12th 2017 at 3:17:25 AM

It's not cowardice to attack your enemy's back when your enemy has been foolish enough to turn around in the middle of a fight.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#55716: Apr 12th 2017 at 3:19:20 AM

It's not cowardice to stab your enemy in the back even when they're completely removed from the battlefield and not expecting it.

They're your fucking enemy. Kill them.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#55717: Apr 12th 2017 at 3:22:09 AM

When it's your enemy, Saiga, it's always the middle of a fight, ;)

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#55718: Apr 12th 2017 at 4:20:10 AM

Page 2218.

First, Soble, why are you using filler scenes in your arguments?

Because no one said "manga canon only" and we were talking about Resurrection F, both versions of which were made by, or made with someone from Toei.

Second, the scene with Chichi and Roshi doesn't support your argument in any way. Roshi wasn't caught off guard and tried to block the helmet blade. He just couldn't do so, because he was too weak. Roshi's power is obviously nothing compared to RF Goku

He caught bullets from a machine gun.

The Kienzan also doesn't work, because the Kienzan is an established technique that can cut through beings much stronger than the user. The dumb ring laser was not established as that at all,

Fair.

furthermore, the difference between Kuririn and Freeza, while quite big, is somewhere between 10-20x greater. Nothing compared to Sorbet and RF Goku's gap.

Why would the gap between Sorbet and RF Goku matter when it's a piece of technology that harmed Goku?

A 10-20x gap is still ten to twenty times above Krillin, and I doubt the gap was that small.

And finally, Freeza and Goku are completely different in mentality. Goku doesn't even leave himself open like that.

He has in the anime. I'm 70 percent sure if I sat down and reviewed every episode/chapter of Goku fighting in the Saiyan, Namek, and Buu sagas I could find at least a few instances of Goku not being on guard. It's hard to believe there aren't any.

It was a flaw invented for the movie, and all logic was dropped to make the scene work.

Consider other possibilities: technology has overcome raw physical power before, Goku's overconfidence has bitten him back in the past, the Androids can manipulate energy the same way that the Z-F Ighters can and yet can't be sensed or tracked normally, and most instances of Goku deflecting an attack automatically involved him A) focusing on the attacker, and B) preparing ki for defense.

  • Dr. Gero built androids that were leagues above Super Saiyan after studying Goku and Trunks's fights with Freeza for about 3 years. The film establishes that "Freeza technology" has vastly improved since Frieza died, restoring him from the life of an al carte dish.
  • Goku's overconfidence has caused him to act stupidly and/or erroneously in the past. It's not impossible that he might let his guard down, even though it doesn't happen often.
  • Correct me I'm wrong but one aspect of the Androids that made them a threat was that nobody could pinpoint where they were - even though they can fire energy beams exactly like the heroes can. Energy can be manipulated in a way that Z-Fighters can't sense or predict (so long as it's not ki or god energy). Sorbet has a laser from a technologically advanced space empire.
  • When Goku blocked Trunks sword he gathered ki into his finger tips. In this scene where he deflects Ginyu's energy balls without even budging, he spends time powering up Kaioken. When Goku deflected Frieza's Death Beams he was facing him and saw the attacks coming. Note, he didn't have time to stop one from hitting Vegeta. He didn't expect Frieza to shoot him like that.

edited 12th Apr '17 4:20:55 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#55719: Apr 12th 2017 at 5:12:27 AM

No-one outlines that from the start because most people involved use the manga as a reference by default and don't consider the anime. Because it's full of a bunch of extra, contradictory fluff that doesn't get referenced again and clearly isn't taken into consideration when Toriyama is doing a new script.

Roshi caught bullets from a machine-gun, yes, and he wasn't too slow to stop the blade. It just went straight through his cane, he misjudged and wasn't so powerful that he could shrug off being struck in the head with it.

Kuririn was 75,000 to somewhere over 1,000,000 but significantly below 3,000,000. Not a large gap.

He has in the anime but the anime doesn't give a flying fuck about being consistent. Manga Goku did once get taken off-guard by Piccolo - when Piccolo was his near equal and appeared to be unconscious. And we immediately see how he learned from that - come Namek, base Goku is able to dodge a completely unexpected attack from Freeza who is stronger than he is (and as a Super Saiyan, not taken aback from Freeza's second attack at all). That's nothing on the level of staring down an undefeated foe, in a powered up state, and being so relaxed a mook can nearly kill you.

Androids being stronger than Freeza is still nothing on laser guns overcoming gods. It was established that they only existed for the extremely weak soldiers of Freeza's army - they are redundant on anyone who has a powerful ki blast by Raditz standards. That's an enormous gap that we never see any progress towards before or even after it was used that way in the movie. Nothing about that being a special laser - which would be mind-numbingly stupid by itself. Considering the other possibilities is just considering other angles from which the movie could be pants-on-head retarded.

As for the sensing, Sorbet can be sensed. And Goku's ki sensing is so advanced that he can tell what someone is doing from behind him, as he described Tenshinhan's exact movements when the later tried to sneak up on him from the 22nd Budokai. The laser ring confers nothing close to the advantage the Androids had - which hadn't even shown to be a problem in combat, just trying to track them outside of it. Babidi's minions couldn't be sensed either, but Goku was able to run rings around Yakon when he couldn't even see anything.

Now you're using anime scenes again. They simply don't reflect how Toriyama - who wrote RF - wrote the story. And the animation is completely inconsistent, seeming to run only on what is aesthetically pleasing, so it's silly to try and find meaning in different animation quirks. Now, Goku concentrating ki on his finger is actually from the manga. And Trunks is actually a threat to Goku, unlike Sorbet. Meanwhile, Vegeta blasts Freeza dead in the back while Freeza (who can't sense ki) is not paying him any mind, and does absolutely no damage. And that was a difference of roughly 4-5x. Many characters tank hits in the manga without even acknowledging the presence of the one attacking them, they do not need to concentrate energy on each hit they block.

And, in the end, all you're doing is presenting ideas the movie did not bother to. Even if you could justify the scene by spinning out some fanon and your own explanations, that makes it 1% what RF actually did and 99% fanfiction to prop it up. It's not up to the fans to explain away a work's bullshit, the work should explain itself. RF didn't.

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#55720: Apr 12th 2017 at 9:58:03 AM

Stop using math on made up numbers! You are confusing me!

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#55721: Apr 12th 2017 at 11:06:44 AM

Well, you could argue that Freeza was able to tank that hit because he is what he is rather than because he has so much ki. His biology seems to lend itself to being far more resilient than any creature in the universe excepting Buu and the gods. Being able to survive as bits or in the vacuum of space lends me to believe that its more than just ki, since no on else can do either of those things. Saiyans, on the other hand, seem to be a little more than human at base. They're resilient, but they have the good courtesy to die when they're killed.

I'm not trying to counter your point, necessarily, just that Freeza might be a bad example.

edited 12th Apr '17 11:07:42 AM by Zeromaeus

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#55722: Apr 12th 2017 at 1:05:31 PM

That is fair point. Freiza did put the series in a new direction especially with the later foes in the franchise that wouldn't break a sweat beating Frieza and possess a monstrous amount of power.

"Mai waifu."
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#55723: Apr 12th 2017 at 2:59:46 PM

No, Freeza's durability to such attacks is because of how much ki he has. Everything is tied to how much Ki you have, and the only time that is not the case is with the androids, and even then, their power is still linked to how much energy they have.

Because that's how it works in Dragon Ball, that's how it has always worked. More Ki = More Speed, Strength and Durability.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#55724: Apr 12th 2017 at 3:07:56 PM

Which really makes me wonder why Burter said he was the fastest in the universe when he knew he was weaker than King Cold, Freeza, and Ginyu. And possibly Jeice?

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#55725: Apr 12th 2017 at 3:18:00 PM

My guess is that characters in Dragon Ball are capable of altering their stats and specialties based on how they train. Jeice used to play pitcher in baseball, so his musculature is probably more suited to throwing balls. Burter seems more like a sprinter.


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