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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#55151: Apr 2nd 2017 at 5:52:47 AM

I can't because he's not real and also that's stupid.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#55152: Apr 2nd 2017 at 6:01:52 AM

Apparently I need to post this again. I don't know about the manga but face it - Dub!Tien was cool.

Damsel-in-distress Hakusho, 7/8 parts sausage fest where women are totally useless Jojo, Hunter x Where the fuck even are the women, One Piece and Fairy Tail.

Genkai in Hakusho. Jolyne isn't useless in Jojo Part 6 and Lisa Lisa was somewhat vital in Part 2. Hunter X Hunter had Menchi and somebody called Neferpitou that the fanbase keeps drawing fanart of, so I assume she's either A) important, or B) popular to some degree. Though, I was mainly grading on whether or not they suffer the same public humiliation Videl did and that's not a very discerning scale. Ranma 1/2 might be a better example. Fairy Tail has Erza (albeit, T&A everywhere). One Piece has Nico Robin and (I assume) Boa Hancock, but I haven't read or watched that series fully.

If you want decent/above-average female leads then Slayers, Project Iria, Ghost in the Shell, and Read or Die are the way to go - that's getting away from Shonen, but I think you kind of have to get away from the shonen demographic if you want more gender inclusivity in manga.

edited 2nd Apr '17 6:16:25 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#55153: Apr 2nd 2017 at 6:06:45 AM

If Cell or King Piccolo qualifies as a 'badass', than Tenshinhan certainly does too, since he occupied the same role in the story that they did for a time, and in my opinion, did it better.

TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#55154: Apr 2nd 2017 at 6:09:22 AM

Gohan really didn't have that much difficulty with the superior technique with poison which was worsening. It's really quite silly.

Hmm? Kind of sounds like you're comparing apples and oranges. From what I remember, Lavenda's technique was a fast-acting poison that caused Gohan's body to deteriorate. Krillin's technique just rendered him undetectable for a period of time. Seems like they're two different things.

And yes, because the idea of Tenshinhan being a "badass" would pretty much render the word meaningless.

If this doesn't scream "badass" to you, I don't know what to tell you.

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#55155: Apr 2nd 2017 at 6:10:44 AM

Genkai is one character and not as prominent as the completely useless females. She's also often unable to make any actual contributions because that would get in the way of plot.

7/8 parts excluded Stone Ocean. Even accepting that Jolene is cool, 7/8ths of a series being awful about handling women does not make for a positive series over-all.

Neferpitou is male. Menchi is a very minor character whose only defining trait is being a completely unfair judge who needs to be corrected by the males.

But Fairy Tail and One Piece fall into the trap of thinking Strong Female Character refers to power levels. Fairy Tail likes using fanservice that humiliates and exploits female characters, One Piece completely underutilizes both characters mentioned and has constant Author Tracts about Oda's benevolent sexism.

Honestly, that's a terrible scale. Videl's battle was nowhere near the problems the above works face, and in some ways avoids some of the worse problems in shonen manga (not being able to show women being hurt in an unattractive way, for instance).

[up][up] it isn't the same role by any definition but a uselessly generic and broad one. Even then, broad description of a role isn't what makes people badass.

[up] God, no. That's padding at its finest - nothing badass about being an incredibly forced "see look he's still cool" moment that doesn't accomplish anything.

Oh, and Lavender's poison blinded Gohan and Lavender was already undetectable as they couldn't sense ki from the U9 fighters. It's not apples and oranges, it's apples and objectively better apples. Kuririn's technique was only a brief instant whereas Lavender had the exact same advantage for the entire fight in addition to his poison constantly damaging Gohan.

edited 2nd Apr '17 6:14:15 AM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#55156: Apr 2nd 2017 at 6:18:45 AM

They all served the role of Arc Villain. And you cannot assert that Tenshinhan's battles with Yamcha, Roshi, and Goku are not all awesome fights.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#55157: Apr 2nd 2017 at 6:19:47 AM

Neferpitou is male

-blink-

...excuse me, I need to go be alone for a little while...

edited 2nd Apr '17 6:32:37 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#55158: Apr 2nd 2017 at 6:23:44 AM

[up][up][up][up] Right, I forgot that the poison also blinded Gohan.

Still, I don't see any real inconsistency. Lavenda's poison let him beat around Gohan for a short period of time until Gohan figured out how to adapt to his blindness. Krillin's technique, to a lesser extent, did the same thing. It didn't completely incapacitate Gohan; it provided him with just enough time to get the drop on him and score a ringout.

edited 2nd Apr '17 6:24:29 AM by TyeDyeWildebeest

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#55159: Apr 2nd 2017 at 6:27:07 AM

The problem is that Gohan adapted to Lavender's technique very quickly, even when it was long lasting and much more was going on. Once he figured out the trick, it makes no sense that a weaker, shorter version would best him so easily.

He established that he could handle losing sight and ki-sensing and still deal with his opponent. Here he's completely shocked that he can't sense Kuririn and can't defend himself.

But it's also just really silly that Kuririn talks about how skilled he is, or Gohan calls himself inexperienced, when that has never come up before. Kuririn had good showings in the manga but simply never was identified as being particularly skilled (and Gohan was never considered lacking in skill) so they've really just invented a new trait for Kuririn to look good.

How is that even a good thing for fanservice if they need to come up with completely new reasons to think Kuririn is cool?

edited 2nd Apr '17 6:29:24 AM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#55160: Apr 2nd 2017 at 6:30:59 AM

Blinding light is a very different sensation than poison, and Gohan's never even been on the receiving end of a normal Solar Flare before, much less Krillin's new powered-up version.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#55161: Apr 2nd 2017 at 6:33:11 AM

Blinding light is by no stretch a worse sensation than poison, unless it was an incredibly mild poison - which Lavender's wasn't. And that kind of difference is a huge stretch to try and cover what is narratively a step backward for the character.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#55162: Apr 2nd 2017 at 6:38:28 AM

To counter your point added above: Gohan has had, what? 5 years or so of total martial arts training in his entire life? When Gohan and Krillin were Image Training on the way to Namek, they even established the fundamental difference between them: Krillin complemented Gohan on his strength, while Gohan complemented Krillin on his variety of techniques. Seems pretty cut-and-dry to me.

edited 2nd Apr '17 6:39:14 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#55163: Apr 2nd 2017 at 6:42:59 AM

Once he figured out the trick, it makes no sense that a weaker, shorter version would best him so easily.

Again, all Krillin did was score a ringout. In a straight-up fight, Gohan would have come back from it pretty easily, but that's not what they were doing.

But it's also just really silly that Kuririn talks about how skilled he is, or Gohan calls himself inexperienced, when that has never come up before.

What are you talking about? Krillin has always been Weak, but Skilled, since the original Dragon Ball. During the tournament arcs, he was constantly using his cunning to make up for the difference in power. Going for Goku's tail, breaking Chiaotzu's psychic hold by giving him math problems, throwing dirty magazines into the ring during his fight with Jackie Chun...

...okay, that last one doesn't really count as "skill", but you see where I'm going with this. There was also the time he used the afterimage technique to score a good hit on General Blue (though granted, Blue got the upper hand moments later with that paralyzing stare technique).

Look, can't I just be happy that my favorite character is having his chance to shine, and that we're no longer watching The Goku and Vegeta Show Starring Goku and Vegeta?

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#55164: Apr 2nd 2017 at 6:51:08 AM

Enjoy your one arc of Goku, Vegeta, and pals then.

Gehayadren Bad Movie Binge Collector from A Garbage Fire Since: Jun, 2016 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#55165: Apr 2nd 2017 at 6:52:55 AM

So, how was the fight against Jiren?

Ha ha ha. What a story, Mark.
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#55166: Apr 2nd 2017 at 6:53:52 AM

[up][up] I will, thank you.

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#55167: Apr 2nd 2017 at 6:57:54 AM

Weak, but Skilled will never make sense in Dragon Ball because the characters, by the very way in which they obtain their strength, are almost never Unskilled, but Strong, and even when they are, they are so overwhelmingly stronger that it's meaningless.

There's a certain point wherein no amount of tactics and skill will overcome sheer brute force.

Krillin should be unable to make Gohan budge even slightly. He could never achieve a ring out on Gohan simply because all Gohan would have to do is stand firm until the effects of the Solar Flare wear off. Krillin should not be able to move Gohan unless Gohan allows him to.

If you want to have the weaker characters be prominent, have them be prominent, but do it fucking right, don't bullshit out a victory in a fight they never could have won.

They worked themselves into a corner with the Battle Royale style tournament. If it'd been a normal tag team tournament, then you could've had the weaker characters go first and face opponents on their level.

Or even have the tournament not be 100% fighting, have it include other stuff that shows off their abilities. Make it interuniversal olympics.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#55168: Apr 2nd 2017 at 7:03:27 AM

[up]Unless the difference between Krillin and Gohan is smaller than you think it is.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#55169: Apr 2nd 2017 at 7:11:32 AM

But it's not though.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#55170: Apr 2nd 2017 at 7:16:05 AM

But it definitely appears to be.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#55171: Apr 2nd 2017 at 7:16:37 AM

But it's not.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#55172: Apr 2nd 2017 at 7:18:38 AM

At the very least, it was smaller than Gohan thought it was.

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#55173: Apr 2nd 2017 at 7:18:40 AM

[up][up]But maybe you're wrong.

edited 2nd Apr '17 7:19:33 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#55174: Apr 2nd 2017 at 7:22:41 AM

But I'm not.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#55175: Apr 2nd 2017 at 7:30:53 AM

brute force vs tactics/skill

Dragonball Super plays fast and loose with this. Heck, Toei is probably doing more with this than Toriyama did. Brute force is usually the solution, true, but Goku vs Hit had Goku use a more tactical approach than usual in both encounters.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

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