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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#54751: Mar 26th 2017 at 8:12:03 AM

[up][up][up]

That is true. Hell, we've pointed out how by the time of the Jr. arc, the latter was so strong that, even after getting his ass kicked by Goku, he was still so powerful that Tenshihan, Yamcha, and Krillin working together would have stood no chance against him. He then went on to prove just that when they did try to interfere.

Toriyama just stayed consistent to how much the powers were increasing.

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#54752: Mar 26th 2017 at 8:25:36 AM

Dragon Ball Super, anime and manga, is fanservice heavy. It's perfectly fine to have that opinion, and no one should be questioned just for having that opinion on the series. If you like Super's elements and justifications, cool. Not everyone will or wants too.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#54753: Mar 26th 2017 at 8:53:56 AM

Somebody just started watching Super?

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#54754: Mar 26th 2017 at 8:58:56 AM

A few people are watching it on Toonami.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#54755: Mar 26th 2017 at 9:00:41 AM

Oh those poor unfortunate souls. :p

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#54756: Mar 26th 2017 at 9:02:59 AM

Truly this is truly the second coming of GT, except I don't have the child innocence to ignore the internet.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#54757: Mar 26th 2017 at 9:16:09 AM

Well, it did start by taking a dig at GT.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#54758: Mar 26th 2017 at 9:25:33 AM

All snark aside, I've seen some clips of the DBS Funimation dub and it's not that bad. I was actually pretty impressed by Jason Douglas's performance as Beerus, particularly in this scene:

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#54759: Mar 26th 2017 at 10:05:53 AM

Speaking of Goten and Kid Trunks, I feel it's important to realize they never mattered. You remove them entirely from the series and the only changes are positive ones.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#54760: Mar 26th 2017 at 10:27:16 AM

See, that's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy though; you say they don't matter, but then they're never put into a position where they could matter.

I feel like Goten and Trunks were primarily introduced to focus on the concept of Fusion with Gotenks, but since we've pretty much moved on from that, they're just like every other character thrown into the background. Except in their case, it's really fucking egregious because now they're implying the likes of Roshi, Tien, and Krilllin are stronger than them lol.

I like Dragon Ball Super, but it just kind of shits on consistency and continuity. Like Toriyama was just like "Fuck it".

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Jedi1113 Since: Jun, 2009
#54761: Mar 26th 2017 at 10:34:30 AM

It has not implied the humans are stronger than them. Goku gave his reasons and that wasn't one.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#54762: Mar 26th 2017 at 10:36:49 AM

[up][up]You aren't really wrong there, but this is the reality of the matter. You have to take what's presented to you and work from there, otherwise you can say anything and call the writer a hack for it.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#54763: Mar 26th 2017 at 10:36:51 AM

The point doesn't change, being "less experienced" didn't matter in the past otherwise they would have never let them fight Buu.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#54764: Mar 26th 2017 at 10:38:52 AM

Goten and Trunks are too young and immature, and the last time they were put into such an important position, they utterly botched it.

Are they stronger? Yeah. Are they trustworthy for this kind of fight?

Hells no. Other will disagree, and perhaps rightfully so, but I say keep them away from this fight.

At least Krillin, Tenshihan and Roshi won't make things worse.

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#54765: Mar 26th 2017 at 10:40:08 AM

And again, you can safely remove them from Dragon Ball and nothing of value would be lost.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#54766: Mar 26th 2017 at 10:40:30 AM

you remove them entirely from the series and the only changes are positive ones

accept this as reality

<.<

You remove Goten and Trunks, Buu shows up to the Lookout and murders everyone before Gohan comes back, Gohan shows up, gets pissed off, gets absorbed because he gets cocky, and then Buu becomes too powerful for Goku and Vegeta to fight. Goku can still potentially come back to life but all of this hinges on Buu blowing up the Earth for the hell of it, people arriving and departing at the necessity of the plot.

You have a far less satisfying series of battles without Gotenks holding the line against Buu until Gohan shows up.

[up]

     

edited 26th Mar '17 10:41:32 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#54767: Mar 26th 2017 at 10:41:59 AM

*Grumbles about it's been more than five years since that fight and they should be more mature by now*

This song needs more love.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#54768: Mar 26th 2017 at 10:45:07 AM

[up][up]Few problems there. 1. You're assuming Goku wouldn't have wasted Fat Buu as a Super Saiyan 3 now that he doesn't need to teach the Fusion Dance to anyone. 2. You're assuming Gohan would fall for Super Buu's absorbing technique due to a flaw you have no way to prove he'd have. 3. You're assuming Vegito vs. Super Buu with Gohan, and by extension the rest of the Buu Saga, doesn't play out exactly the same way.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#54769: Mar 26th 2017 at 10:46:20 AM

I mean, it could be worse. They could make their exclusion from this tournament the butt of a joke like they're doing with Yamcha.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#54770: Mar 26th 2017 at 10:53:29 AM

On that same coin:

1. You're assuming Goku would have wasted Fat Buu as a Super Saiyan 3. Why didn't he? He said he could have taken out Kid Buu and... yet he didn't. And Kid Buu was weaker. And in the manga he didn't waste time with Super Saiyan 2, and yet he still couldn't do it.

2. You're assuming Gohan wouldn't fall for Super Buu's absorption... even though he totally did, even after seeing it happen. And this was Gohan in his prime. Vegito, meanwhile, raised a barrier in the nick of time. It's not impossible to negate the absorption. And I think it can be proven that Gohan is cocky at this point because he walks up to Buu and threatens him at the beginning of the fight, and taunts him after the first few hits.

3. I'm always open to chaos theory, but if you're arguing "these characters don't matter, this is fact" then saying all of these factors would fall into place to support that argument is something I can't agree with. We can't say "Goten and Trunks are pointless" based solely on speculation. We can't prove that Goku would kill Fat Buu or that Gohan would kill Fat Buu, or that Buu would take any action that would lead to his immediate defeat.

edited 26th Mar '17 10:59:47 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
BigBlackBangBro Time Stranger Since: Sep, 2016
Time Stranger
#54771: Mar 26th 2017 at 10:53:29 AM

I find amazing that Super has very little interest in Goten and Trunks considering the target demographic of the series.

35 year old white man.
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#54772: Mar 26th 2017 at 11:09:38 AM

Yeah, the old fans who know what has already happened.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#54773: Mar 26th 2017 at 11:15:00 AM

No, the target demographic is still young boys. It's still a shonen action series, much as you might want to insist that it's targetted at Older Fans - because not everyone who has watched Dragon Ball is one of the older fans, since, you know, Kai was a thing that happened not too long ago, and the franchise itself has seen a large revival in recent years.

@the Goten and Trunks are pointless thing:

Without Goten and Trunks, and with Gohan presumably dead, Goku would've likely killed Babidi and Majin Buu as SSJ 3. He flat out said he could have done it but chose not to. He has no reason to choose not to in this situation. End result is an incredibly short Buu saga.

Though if Gohan isn't presumed dead at this point, it would be funny if Goku decides to instead stall so that Gohan can go into the time chamber on the gamble that he might emerge strong enough to off Buu in SSJ 2.

edited 26th Mar '17 11:18:22 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#54774: Mar 26th 2017 at 11:15:12 AM

1. You're assuming Goku would have wasted Fat Buu as a Super Saiyan 3. Why didn't he? He said he could have taken out Kid Buu and... yet he didn't. And Kid Buu was weaker. And in the manga he didn't waste time with Super Saiyan 2, and yet he still couldn't do it.

Because he wanted to train Goten and Kid Trunks to do it instead. And the rest of that is due to Goku never using Super Saiyan 3 while alive until he face Kid Buu and experienced the intense power bleeding. He couldn't do it at that point.

2. You're assuming Gohan wouldn't fall for Super Buu's absorption... even though he totally did, even after seeing it happen. And this was Gohan in his prime. Vegito, meanwhile, raised a barrier in the nick of time. It's not impossible to negate the absorption. And I think it can be proven that Gohan is cocky at this point because he walks up to Buu and threatens him at the beginning of the fight, and taunts him after the first few hits.

Gohan was only distracted by Super Buu randomly losing Gotenks' fusion power, which of course only happens due to Goten and Kid Trunks existing in the first place. You take them out, Super Buu has no way to get to Gohan mentally or catch him off guard.

And Vegito was trying to get absorbed. Buu's abilities don't bind him, the World Most Powerful Jawbreaker scene proves that.

Since your third question is just calling this argument pointless, I won't answer it.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#54775: Mar 26th 2017 at 11:15:19 AM

You remove Goten and Trunks, Buu shows up to the Lookout and murders everyone before Gohan comes back

This is true.

Gohan shows up, gets pissed off

This is also true.

gets absorbed because he gets cocky

Wait! That's questionable! If there was no Gotenks for Super Buu to absorb, there's no guarantee that Gohan would give Buu the chance to do that. He might end up destroying Buu before he gets a chance for such a thin.

Now alternatively, whether Goku could have beaten Fat Buu is up in the air. Goku believes he could have, and I believe that based on what he knew at the time, that's accurate, but the later addition of the Energy burn on 3 means that he would have been unknowingly burning up his time on Earth. So the question is could Goku have defeated Buu at level three before he used up all his time?

Narrative convention would have demanded he not make it.

Anyway, I admit, as bad an idea as it was to put everything in Goten and Trunks' hands, I wouldn't want to leave them out. I do hope we get a chance to see them strut their stuff at some point. The series does seem to be ignoring them truthfully.

One Strip! One Strip!

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