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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#54726: Mar 26th 2017 at 5:38:09 AM

Toriyama did not design this series to go as long as it does now that's for sure.

There's a limit to how much you can do here before you have to start really bending logic to make the story work.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#54727: Mar 26th 2017 at 5:40:02 AM

Well, not really. Logic is only being bent because they're making fanservice and old characters returning to spotlight a priority.

The series could have easily continued without doing that, if written with the same mentality as it was back when the manga was running. But it's been twenty years since then, things just aren't going to be the same.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#54728: Mar 26th 2017 at 5:57:53 AM

It wouldn't be anywhere near as big of a problem if they hadn't written themselves into the corner of this being a battle royale instead of a regular tournaments. They could have the weaker characters give good showings in fights against weaker opponents and then have Goku and Vegeta step in against the stronger foes.

Hell, you could even make an argument of wanting to hold Goku and Vegeta back in case one of the weaker opponents pulls out a weird ability that allows them to take Goku or Vegeta by surprise and eliminate them - which would result in their team getting fooked.

But they didn't do that. Instead, they wrote themselves into a corner such that they can only write themselves out of with unbelievably high amounts of bullshit.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#54729: Mar 26th 2017 at 6:10:17 AM

Easiest way to make weaker characters necessary: Multi-round elimination tournament. Each universe has to enter different fighters into each round they fight.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#54730: Mar 26th 2017 at 6:16:38 AM

Or maybe even not have the tournament be purely about fighting, and some of it be about exhibiting techniques or such. Roshi would definitely come in handy there, he's ought to have at least a few showy but otherwise useless techniques.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#54731: Mar 26th 2017 at 6:20:05 AM

They prolly thought of doing all that but the fact the tournament has so many contestants they figured a battle royale would be the easy choice.

I mean it doesn't make it better in the end but its understandable more or less.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#54732: Mar 26th 2017 at 6:42:26 AM

You might say it's understandable, I call it lazy.

They're being paid to do this, after all...

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#54733: Mar 26th 2017 at 6:49:20 AM

Yeah that too. They are pretty much being lazy about this.

They realized the time and effort a normal tournamnet would take and so they took the easy way out of it. A shame but it is what it is, again sadly.

I wonder if they might do a normal tournament for the remaning universes though I hope not cause I'm a little tired of tournament arcs.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#54734: Mar 26th 2017 at 6:55:44 AM

Worst part is, it might've even been more fun for them to do something other than fighting.

Doesn't help that so far Super's not really had any fights I would call 'awesome'. They're passable, but they picked a guy who thinks fights shouldn't have any high impact moments to animate Vegetto VS Zamasu...

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
BigBlackBangBro Time Stranger Since: Sep, 2016
Time Stranger
#54735: Mar 26th 2017 at 6:57:00 AM

Considering there are so many fighters in a battle royal who's to say some aren't weaker than Roshi?

35 year old white man.
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#54736: Mar 26th 2017 at 6:57:52 AM

Doesn't help that so far Super's not really had any fights I would call 'awesome'.

You didn't like Goku vs. Hit?

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#54737: Mar 26th 2017 at 7:14:26 AM

I did, but I wouldn't call it awesome.

Honestly?

I think I'm a bit spoiled because I've seen what happens when the animators actually have enough time to do what they want to do in a fight.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Gehayadren Bad Movie Binge Collector from A Garbage Fire Since: Jun, 2016 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#54738: Mar 26th 2017 at 7:18:10 AM

Armok secretly rules Universe 9 and Urist is just his pawn, while Roh follows Armok's orders. Armok kept resetting the universe and he screwed up on his latest attempt.

Ha ha ha. What a story, Mark.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#54739: Mar 26th 2017 at 7:19:12 AM

I wonder.

Would Gohan be good at playing Dwarf Fortress?

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#54740: Mar 26th 2017 at 7:32:44 AM

Nice episode. Thins of interest:

-28 planets? Holy shit, either Toriyama doesn't actually know how big an universe is, or there's something seriously wrong with just 28 planets with life. This brings in so many questions. Also makes Beerus destroying like what, 8 planets at the start of super even more horrifying.

- Bra is the cutest onion. I like how Whis just straight up magicked her out of Bulma.

- Yeah, I'm not buying that Roshi will be of much use. This is just fanservice.

-It's funny how much no one trust the boys not to screw things up. I guess uut makes sense after Buu saga.

- At least no one is under any delusions that Yamcha could be useful, save the man himself. That one time he kinda sorta helped win the baseball game really went to his head.

- Vegeta is such a tsundere.

BigBlackBangBro Time Stranger Since: Sep, 2016
Time Stranger
#54741: Mar 26th 2017 at 7:34:43 AM

Funny enough people thought Bulma and Chi Chi would keep Trunks and Goten out the tournament. Turns out Goku is the one who does. Poor kids :p

35 year old white man.
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#54742: Mar 26th 2017 at 7:36:04 AM

According to you. According to Super, Goku and Gohan think that Krillin is just under Buu's level of strength, and he appears to be giving Gohan a good fight in the next episode preview because apparently they underestimated him even with THAT, and Yamcha is Baseball God.

I think Krillin's mini-arc established that his combat weakness is at least partially the fault of his inferiority complex and underconfidence (which we also saw hints of in the Resurrection F arc). But now that he's conquered that mental block, his potential is far greater. At least, that's how I see it.

As far as Roshi is concerned, this moment from the intro is all the justification I need. Yeah, it's fanservice, but it's awesome fanservice.

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#54743: Mar 26th 2017 at 7:38:40 AM

Goku during Buu saga: "Yeah, I could've kill Buu, but I rather leave the fate of the universe in the hands of Goten and Trunks. I'm sure they'll do just fine."

Goku now:"I've learned my lesson."

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#54744: Mar 26th 2017 at 7:44:50 AM

[up] True dat.

So many people seemed to think that if numerical power levels didn't exist than Frieza overwhelming everyone as much as he did somehow wouldn't be a ridiculous, and I've never got it. Numbers or not, those fights and scaling happened because Toriyama wanted them to happen.

This is true. Even without numbers, Frieza still would have been a step above everyone else. It's not power levels that buggered things. It's Frieza that's was the problem. I admit, for all my complaints, I often forget that (and probably will again).

As for the weak justifications for weaker characters, the lack of consistency, etc...meh. We've been over this before, and I don't have anything good to add, so I'll just forget it for now....

...until the next time I forget this conversation and bring it up again, like I often do.

One Strip! One Strip!
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#54745: Mar 26th 2017 at 7:50:22 AM

-28 planets? Holy shit, either Toriyama doesn't actually know how big an universe is, or there's something seriously wrong with just 28 planets with life.

Yeah, scientists estimate that there are billions of planets in our universe capable of supporting life.

Though in Tori's defense, I think maybe he was only counting planets with sentient life. So he wasn't including planets whose ecosystems only consist of, like, plants and amoebas and stuff.

...actually, no, 28 still sounds like a severely low estimate.

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#54746: Mar 26th 2017 at 7:58:28 AM

Blame Buu, Frieza, and Beerus.

One Strip! One Strip!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#54747: Mar 26th 2017 at 8:03:01 AM

Didn't Freeza had at least 76 planets under his control? Did he just name random rock after himself?

Why is there such a thing like space delivery service with just 28 planets in the entire universe? What's the point of space patrol? How did Freeza entire businesses model even function all those years? I'm pretty sure we've seen more than 28 different species!

Holy shit, this makes no sense, and raises so many questions! Goddammit Toriyama!

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#54748: Mar 26th 2017 at 8:05:20 AM

This is true. Even without numbers, Frieza still would have been a step above everyone else. It's not power levels that buggered things. It's Frieza that's was the problem. I admit, for all my complaints, I often forget that (and probably will again).

If you want to be technical, the Power Creep originally started with the King Piccolo arc and only grew more absurd with each subsequent arc.

TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#54749: Mar 26th 2017 at 8:05:54 AM

I guess this is what happens when you're Writing by the Seat of Your Pants for decades at a time.

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#54750: Mar 26th 2017 at 8:08:10 AM

The 28 planets with life thing is a massive plothole because of Freeza.

But whether it was a Toriyama fuckup or a Toei fuckup, I think, remains to be seen. Would depend on whether or not it's in the manga.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari

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