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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#54701: Mar 26th 2017 at 1:55:47 AM

Even if it's weird given how little that sort of thing has mattered in this series for so long, I liked their justification for Roshi being that they want someone smart and experienced enough to take advantage of the strange circumstances of the fight.

I wonder if the plot/fight will end up using Roshi as a kind of coordinator - directing the others and quickly thinking up new strategies but not fighting much on his own.

Also, it's interesting that Tenshinhan was not one of the ones they thought of using at first, nor mentioned by anyone else. Makes me wonder what the circumstances of his recruitment are going to be.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#54702: Mar 26th 2017 at 2:02:37 AM

I really don't buy the explanation. While Roshi's a lot older than everyone else, Goku and Vegeta- especially Vegeta- have been stated and shown to be savants when it comes to combat. Both of them can immediately see flaws in techniques and transformations and both of them know how to turn their enemy's strengths into weaknesses (especially Goku). Then you have the fact that Roshi has absolutely no experience fighting someone anywhere close to the level the tournament will be on and the fact that, as the weakest member of the group by a very large margin, he shouldn't even be able to see what anyone is doing most of the time and those he could see would be absolutely no threat to anyone else.

Why is Roshi here?

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#54703: Mar 26th 2017 at 2:06:28 AM

Also the tournament conditions simply aren't that weird. It's silly they act like ring outs are some foreign concept.

[up] There will never be an adequate reason for that. The only way to watch Super is to ignore this kinda stuff.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#54704: Mar 26th 2017 at 2:19:23 AM

A coherent world where everything follows its own rules and actually really consistent all things considered? Pfft. Who cares about that? Take this fan service instead!

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#54705: Mar 26th 2017 at 2:22:47 AM

Well Super is fanservice all things considered, heheh. tongue

edited 26th Mar '17 2:22:57 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#54706: Mar 26th 2017 at 2:27:33 AM

[up][up][up]

That doesn't mean they have the same knowledge Roshi has, certainly not Goku.

Plus Vegeta does have the best strategies. You do remember this is the guy that let Freeza transform and let Cell absorb 18, right?

So you're wrong, Roshi's would be of help to them.

Don't be so serious, have fun.

edited 26th Mar '17 2:31:29 AM by Cortez

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#54707: Mar 26th 2017 at 2:32:12 AM

That is ridiculously simplistic and uses only two cherrypicked examples to say Zel or I are wrong.[lol]

The fact is, Goku and Vegeta are the only two people described as "combat geniuses" in the manga. Toriyama doesn't write any of his characters as consistently intelligent, but his intent is made quite clear that these two are above the likes of the Earthlings, Piccolo, and their enemies.

If Roshi was so useful, it would've come up in the manga. This is a clear disconnect to Roshi admitting he had nothing more to offer his students.

edited 26th Mar '17 2:32:33 AM by Saiga

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#54708: Mar 26th 2017 at 2:45:28 AM

You're calling it cherrypicking because it disagrees with your argument? Not exactly how it works.

You're also ignoring that it was already established that in the tournament, strength alone won't be enough.

Plus, Goku already admitted he's not much of a team player and neither is Vegeta really.

And "Nothing more to teach" hasn't stopped him from lending a hand in anyway he can.

You forget this isn't a 1 v 1 tournament.

edited 26th Mar '17 2:53:34 AM by Cortez

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#54709: Mar 26th 2017 at 2:52:01 AM

Goku & Vegeta come across more as thinking on the fly opponents. Their combat savants but really only in the heat of the moment.

I don't recall them ever coming up with any form of strategy or tactics in preparation for a battle except for just more training. That's Piccolo's job really.

Though I would give more smart points to Goku actually for his better training plan for when they faced Cell.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#54710: Mar 26th 2017 at 2:56:09 AM

And thinking on the fly has cost them as much as it has helped them.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#54711: Mar 26th 2017 at 3:00:09 AM

Uh, no. I'm calling it cherrypicking because you picked literally two examples that best suited your argument and didn't include anything else. That is literally what cherrypicking is.

I didn't say anything about strength. Goku/Vegeta being combat geniuses is from the manga and not in reference to their strength but their ability in combat.

It did stop him. He completely stopped contributing in the manga.smile

Haven't forgotten anything - the group format isn't very significant. Saying it is doesn't make it so, when there is no apparent reason for this to be the case and with the long history Dragon Ball has had with group fights not changing much.

They've said strength isn't enough, but haven't done enough to establish why. The ring out rule is nothing new, neither is multiple participants. As we've seen historically, that doesn't account for the difference in strength. Furthermore, it doesn't change than Roshi isn't a combat genius like Goku/Vegeta, which is why he isn't logically helpful.

[up][up] Piccolo doesn't do much preparation either. His plans also usually fail and he's not described as a combat genius.

[up] No it hasn't. Personality flaws have, but Vegeta has also gone through character development since then and Goku has also moved beyond that (telling Gohan to finish off Cell, finishing off the returned Freeza). Both of them have done very well thinking on the fly, more so than other characters. It's what allowed Vegeta to beat Zarbon, what allowed Goku to finish Raditz (he realized Raditz could cut off his tail if he tried that again), what allowed Goku to perform well against the much stronger Cell, etc

edited 26th Mar '17 3:02:47 AM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#54712: Mar 26th 2017 at 3:06:30 AM

Goku and Vegeta have admitted to being terrible in team battles, which is what's important here, while Roshi was almost entirely the coordinator of the huge group battle in Resurrection 'F'.

On a side note, it occurs to me that, because of the format of the tournament, the 'best fighter' who gets a wish on the Super Dragon Balls isn't necessarily going to be from the winning Universe. Say, U7 wins the tournament, with Goku, Vegeta, and Buu left standing, but Jiren is the most impressive fighter in the whole tournament, Jiren would get the wish.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#54713: Mar 26th 2017 at 3:10:27 AM

The huge group battle was a farce to begin with and didn't require coordination. Roshi did very little in that anyway, most of the fight ended up being split up.

Furthermore, nothing about this format even requires teamwork. The only thing that makes Goku/Vegeta bad team players is that there is nothing they need from a team of losers like the Earthlings.

Besides, for all the talk about being bad team players one of the only successful instances of teamwork in the series was Goku and Piccolo working together.

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#54714: Mar 26th 2017 at 3:27:11 AM

Yeah, because Goku followed Piccolo's lead, just like he's following Gohan's lead now.

And you didn't like it, doesn't make it a farce.

edited 26th Mar '17 3:28:07 AM by Cortez

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#54715: Mar 26th 2017 at 3:31:27 AM

[up][up] Dude don't call them losers.

Sure they've been left behind for the Saiyans for a long-ass while but ya don't have to insult their honor like that. They deserve some respect.

edited 26th Mar '17 3:31:51 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#54716: Mar 26th 2017 at 3:36:17 AM

[up][up] Piccolo just told him to distract Raditz. It was Goku who decided to grab Raditz' tail, Goku who realized that Raditz could potentially sever his own tail and made the decision to use a full nelson to ensure he didn't get away. Goku more than pulled his weight in that team.

I'm not calling it a farce just because I didn't like it. I'm calling it a farce because Freeza's soldiers have long since been irrelevant, and Freeza himself noted that Gohan could wipe the entire squad out if he wanted to. It didn't need to be a team battle even in Resurrection F's context!

[up] I'll keep calling them losers as long as they keep getting compared to the Saiyans, because by comparison that's all they are.

edited 26th Mar '17 3:36:58 AM by Saiga

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#54717: Mar 26th 2017 at 3:44:08 AM

The only time teamwork might actually be required in the Tournament of Power is if some guy ends up being stronger than both Goku and Vegeta. If that happens, the others wouldn't even be good for a distraction unless Gohan somehow manages to reach Goku and Vegeta's current level and gain SSJB.

How many fighters are in this again? Eighty? The entire thing should basically boil down to a variant of this conversation.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#54718: Mar 26th 2017 at 3:48:38 AM

[up][up]According to you. According to Super, Goku and Gohan think that Krillin is just under Buu's level of strength, and he appears to be giving Gohan a good fight in the next episode preview because apparently they underestimated him even with THAT, and Yamcha is Baseball God.

edited 26th Mar '17 3:49:24 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#54719: Mar 26th 2017 at 3:52:46 AM

And, as established, Super doesn't give a flying fuck about consistency making it irrelevant to the original point raised by Zel.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#54720: Mar 26th 2017 at 3:55:36 AM

So wait what's the problem then?

If there is one.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#54721: Mar 26th 2017 at 3:58:35 AM

Zel's point was, as I understand it, about how Super's justifications for Roshi don't line up with the manga's portrayal of him. Roshi was never this useful between the early Dragon Ball and the end of the manga.

edited 26th Mar '17 3:59:13 AM by Saiga

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#54722: Mar 26th 2017 at 4:07:46 AM

[up][up] Guess they don't like Roshi being relevant again.

I don't see how it's any different from One Piece, where the weaker members and the stronger ones both contribute to the fights.

And weren't people complaining about Goku and Vegeta getting all the focus these days?

edited 26th Mar '17 4:09:29 AM by Cortez

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#54723: Mar 26th 2017 at 4:33:59 AM

Because this isn't One Piece, and even OP isn't as much like that as people make out to be.

Not wanting Goku/Vegeta to take all the spotlight isn't the same thing as accepting weaker characters being pushed on shaky, inconsistent logic.

It's not due to a dislike of Roshi, but the shows' attempts to justify it.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#54724: Mar 26th 2017 at 5:07:58 AM

I don't mind Goku and Vegeta getting all of the focus in the big fights simply because the only one who could possibly reach their level right now is Gohan. It's consistent with how things were in the manga from day one and that's just the way things are. I also don't mind the other characters getting focus but trying to give them focus in the big fights is going to result in plot holes so huge that not even Zenou can destroy them 99 times out of 100.

Honestly, the slice of life stuff between sagas is great for giving the other characters focus. We can see more into their lives, learn more about them, and maybe get an entertaining "fight" or two. However, in the main sagas, they have no business being anything other than supporting characters who do not participate in the fights simply because any opponent they could defeat could be taken down by Goku or Vegeta just staring at them really hard. A really great, if ultimately meaningless, example of this is Roshi teaching Goku the Mafuuba in the Future Trunks Saga.

My point is that including any fighter who's bellow the god tier in the big fights is just a waste of everyone's time.

Dragon Ball has an identity which one simply cannot fight in most works out there. Even though it arguably codified most of the fighting shounen tropes used today, even works that site it as a main inspiration are extremely different in a large number of ways. I go to Dragon Ball because I want what it- and almost only it (Yu Yu Hakusho might be pretty similar)- can offer. If I wanted what most people seem to want from Dragon Ball, I'd go to basically any modern fighting shounen anime like Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, Fairy Tail or... whatever's running now that fits the genre.

That's my point.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#54725: Mar 26th 2017 at 5:34:53 AM

One of the problems of power escalations is that when the difference between the main fighters and everyone else is as vast as it is in Dragon Ball...

Any opponent that any of the other fighters is remotely relevant against is an enemy that Goku and Vegeta can defeat literally just by flexing their metaphoric ki muscles.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari

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