TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#53976: Mar 10th 2017 at 8:58:48 PM

What's making Mr. Boo stronger than Gotenks?

He should be weaker, yes?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#53977: Mar 10th 2017 at 9:03:07 PM

You say that all I do is rationalization, but all you're doing is insisting that they're stronger and that there's no feasible way that they'd be a worse option just because they're stronger.

Thing is, I can totally see Goten and Trunks doing something stupid like provoking an opponent that can take them out in one hit, where in the same situation I could see Tien and Roshi standing down and letting someone stronger take care of it. You know, like they've been doing since they were outclassed.

I can totally see Goten and Trunks finding a way to fuck up. They're creative, if nothing else.

If it comes down to how many are standing at the end, I'd rather have people mature enough to stay out of the way.

It's a fact that they're stronger. And I didn't say that being stronger was the only reason they couldn't be a worse option. I said that because Ten and Roshi have never been able to solve something the kids couldn't. I am actually using facts from the series rather than making claims up out of thin air.

Even in that scenario, which you entirely invented, it doesn't make Goten/Trunks a liability to the team. It makes them a non entity, which you argued both sides would be anyway.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#53978: Mar 10th 2017 at 9:05:00 PM

[up][up][up]Roshi and Tenshinhan were both the final bosses of an entire arc, while Goten and Trunks only served to stall Buu while fused as Gotenks, and that's it. Plot-wise, they are almost entirely irrelevant, while Roshi and Tenshinhan each carried an arc as the main antagonist.

edited 10th Mar '17 9:05:58 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53979: Mar 10th 2017 at 9:06:44 PM

Even if that scenario I feel like Tien would be pretty likely to provoke someone out of his league and get taken out just because obsessing over testing his limits and hating falling behind is an established part of his character. Hell, it's part of what drove his most remembered/beloved moment.

[up]Even going with your "vastly more important" argument, of which I don't think what you described qualifies, that's a terrible argument. The past is the past, it should have no bearing on what is going on now and who is best suited for the situation.

edited 10th Mar '17 9:10:36 PM by LSBK

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#53980: Mar 10th 2017 at 9:06:49 PM

Because it's a battle royale (and because of how far weaker many of our known combatants are from the others we know), it's probable we're going to see "multiple weaker opponents give stronger ones trouble with sheer numbers" start to be a thing, after ages of it not mattering.

edited 10th Mar '17 9:07:45 PM by KnownUnknown

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#53982: Mar 10th 2017 at 9:08:48 PM

<shrug>

It's going to have to be a thing, otherwise the kind of fight we're going to see won't work.

It will to be up to Toriyama and Toei to make it make sense, but more likely it's just going to be a thing now: like Krillin and Goku getting hurt by bullets despite that never being previously possible in the series even at their absolute weakest.

[down] That's debatable. The mooks weren't overwhelming our heroes because they were strong enough collectively to do damage, but rather because there were so many of them that they started getting tired having to continuously take care of all of them.

edited 10th Mar '17 9:11:54 PM by KnownUnknown

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#53983: Mar 10th 2017 at 9:08:50 PM

It happened in Resurrection 'F'.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#53984: Mar 10th 2017 at 9:09:57 PM

Ya know I wonder if TFS ever gets to this part in the next decade maybe they'll have Tien & Roshi go "Whoppi, yay were back in the spotlight, awesome!!!!"

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#53985: Mar 10th 2017 at 11:21:54 PM

In short; be happy Roshi and Tien fans are being thrown a bone and stop trying to justify it beyond fanservice. We're pretty firmly in Strong as They Need to Be territory now.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#53986: Mar 11th 2017 at 12:21:22 AM

Also, Toei didn't really care. [nja]

"Mai waifu."
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#53987: Mar 11th 2017 at 3:50:59 AM

You mean Toriyama.

Anyway, Trunks and Goten are already proven to be fuck ups, mayor fuck ups of fuck up town, so Tien and Roshi are far more reliable.

Look, at the end of the day, Tien and Roshi will take this tournament seriously, Goten and Trunks would not. So Tien and Roshi are the logical choice.

Besides, it was already said power alone wouldn't be enough to win.

@slimcoder: Except abridge Tien is super serious.

edited 11th Mar '17 3:59:17 AM by Cortez

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53988: Mar 11th 2017 at 4:11:19 AM

That's basically just a shorter version of what IANCE said. Shortening doesn't make it anymore true.

edited 11th Mar '17 4:11:46 AM by LSBK

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#53989: Mar 11th 2017 at 4:55:21 AM

@Saiga

Nobody is saying that they're not stronger, Saiga. Everyone knows that Goten and Trunks are stronger than Tien and Roshi, unless Super bullshits out an excuse (which it is likely to do - it reached heights of bullshit previously unheard of in Dragon Ball with Future Trunks already, so it wouldn't surprise me).

Furthermore, of course I invented that hypothetical scenario. What's your point? That because I thought up a scenario where Goten and Trunks would be more of a liability (remember, doing something dumb to get eliminated means you have one less man standing at the end) than Tien and Roshi, it means the scenario could never happen? Only because I thought it up? What, do you think that whoever's handling these episodes will go "oh no IANCE said it in Tv Tropes, we can't do it now!" and not do it?

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53990: Mar 11th 2017 at 5:03:37 AM

I feel like a lot of this discussion is based on willfulling ignoring Tien's actual personality and characterization. The idea that he would actually go to this tournament and be content/intend to not actually compete even against people stronger than him doesn't mesh well with how he's been written (at this point, anyway). The idea that because he's smarter than Goten and Trunks and therefore wouldn't pick a fight with anyone who could beat him has nothing supporting it.

And in a situation between a much weaker guy who knowingly goes after people to test himself, and guy much stronger guy who might inadvertently do it, you go with the stronger one because they have a better chance of actually winning and that still helps their chances.

Rosh, for his part, has been mostly inconsequential in this discussion because by all rights he should be even more irrelevant than Tien, but here we are, and I can actually see him being smart about things in ways none of the other people we're discussing would be.

The actual rules of the tournament, with there being no killing in it and having to knock people out of the ring to win probably provides some leeway for thing, but probably not much.

edited 11th Mar '17 5:10:04 AM by LSBK

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#53991: Mar 11th 2017 at 5:09:51 AM

I didn't see Tien going off half cocked to fight Majin Buu.

Goten and Trunks did.

Tien does step up to fight Cell and Majin Buu - when the situation was so dire that he actually wound up actually managing to be useful both times. Sure, thanks to Vegeta, his efforts against Cell eventually amounted to nothing, but if it weren't for Vegeta, Tien would've actually been useful. Similarly, he actually was useful against Buu. Sure, he went down in one hit afterards, but he did something useful.

He went up to those opponents that were significantly stronger than him, yes. He went in knowing he would lose. He didn't go in seeking to prove himself against an opponent the couldn't do jack shit about. He tried to help against opponents that were steamrolling everyone.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53992: Mar 11th 2017 at 5:14:43 AM

What did he do that was meaningful against Majin Buu?

Another weird assumption it seems like your making is that "much stronger than Tien" equates to "On Goku and Vegeta's level" that, gulf is so huge there are probably plenty of people who are going to be at the tournament who wouldn't stand a chance against Goku or Vegeta but could swat him like a fly. And he will probably at least think of challenging some of them to test himself, because that is the kind of guy he is.

If you're going to ignore the characters actual characterization then what's the point in discussing this? Or rather, ignore the characterization that hurts your argument.

edited 11th Mar '17 5:16:47 AM by LSBK

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#53993: Mar 11th 2017 at 5:22:37 AM

What did he do that was meaningful against Majin Buu?

This. You know it's fun.

Another weird assumption it seems like your making is that "much stronger than Tien" equates to "On Goku and Vegeta's level" that, gulf is so huge there are probably plenty of people who are going to be at the tournament who wouldn't stand a chance against Goku or Vegeta but could swat him like a fly. And he will probably at least think of challenging some of them to test himself, because that is the kind of guy he is.

I'm not assuming that 'much stronger than Tien equates to On Goku and Vegeta's level'. You're trying to put words in my mouth. What I am saying is that there is a very large chance that there will be ridiculously strong opponents who could swat Goten and Trunks like a fly, and Goten and Trunks are more likely to do something that gets them targetted by an opponent they can't do anything against than Tien or Roshi.

If you're going to ignore the characters actual characterization then what's the point in discussing this? Or rather, ignore the characterization that hurts your argument.

And yet, in canon, the ones who go off to do something stupid that very nearly gets them killed and dooms mankind were Goten and Trunks, instead of Tien, who came in when the world was fucked anyway.

I'm not seeing where Tien is this thrill seeking moron who endangers the world because he wants a better fight. That's Goku.

edited 11th Mar '17 5:23:48 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#53994: Mar 11th 2017 at 5:27:29 AM

Tien and Roshi represent their arcs better than those Saiyan kids.

edited 11th Mar '17 5:29:09 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53995: Mar 11th 2017 at 5:30:33 AM

[up]So fanservice. Again, I'm fine with that, I don't have some big love for Goten and Trunks or hatred of Tenshinhan or Roshi. I just find these attempts to rationalize it as more than it is annoying and unnecessary.

edited 11th Mar '17 5:31:30 AM by LSBK

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#53996: Mar 11th 2017 at 5:42:12 AM

Saying "it's just fanservice" though makes it sound awfully reductive, but alas.

There's no logical reason not to bring them from an in-universe perspective. The only workable excuse is that Chi-Chi and Bulma forbade Goten and Trunks from participating, but that would basically be character assassination given their argument would have to stand up against "Zeno will obliterate the universe if our team loses." They even brought Gohan off the bench so not using Goten and Trunks is purely Toei or Toriyama deciding that including Roshi and Tien brings more nostalgia and more viewers.

And they're not exactly wrong. Does anybody actually like Goten or Trunks? Or maybe Toriyama forgot they existed and his notes said "Okay universe 7's team will be... Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Krillin, Androids, uh... Majin Buu?"

Of course there's always the possibility that Zeno's Grand Mouthpiece will alter the rules of the tournament and let Universe 7 use Goten and Trunks as pinch-hitters.

edited 11th Mar '17 3:43:42 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53997: Mar 11th 2017 at 5:49:14 AM

I will say, based on these exhibition matches I am looking forward to the tournament. And, from a Doylist perspective, it doesn't really matter because whoever goes is guaranteed to have at least one good fight before getting knocked out to let Goku be the last man standing/or be knocked out by the last man standing.

Well, there could be some twists and turns here, but I'm fairly confident in the first part.

Gehayadren Bad Movie Binge Collector from A Garbage Fire Since: Jun, 2016 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#53998: Mar 11th 2017 at 5:50:41 AM

Alright, which DB Super dub do you prefer?

[down]FU Nimation and Bang Zoom/Toonami Asia dubs. Also, the only links I can find of them are torrents, and I'm not linking those at all, so have this instead.

edited 11th Mar '17 5:59:06 AM by Gehayadren

Ha ha ha. What a story, Mark.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#53999: Mar 11th 2017 at 5:51:49 AM

Curious how the Turtle Hermit will compete around all these chicks.

[up] There is more than one? What other dubs are out there? Could you link to one?

You meant TFS. Be more clear; they're not really an official dub.

Not trying to be rude, the haiku was just much nicer this way, heh.

Oh you meant those dubs. My apologies, sorry, didn't realize, heh.

There's a bunch of covers for the second opening.

     

edited 11th Mar '17 3:43:05 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#54000: Mar 11th 2017 at 6:14:55 AM

I've seen a few minutes of the Bang Zoom dub. It's not AB Groupe, but it's still not much better.

Also, Bang Zoom manages to have a stupider name than Funimation. That takes some effort.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.

Total posts: 130,800
Top