They brought back Piccolo to fight Frieza's second form after not being strong enough to overcome Nappa in his last combat role. Convenient plot-relevant power-up and BAM, Piccolo is now Frieza's equal. Hell, Vegeta goes from being Cui's equal to being able to fight Frieza's Final Form without immediately being vaporized over the course of a couple weeks on Namek.
Seriously, if the show wants a protagonist to be able to fight the latest super-powered villain, they will, regardless of how powerful they were in their last appearance. Vegeta was able to master the Super Saiyan transformation offscreen so he could show up out of nowhere and kill Android 19, quickly Hand Waved in a silly flashback.
edited 28th Feb '14 11:10:59 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Piccolo was dead for like six days and performed a fusion after getting a bunch of power by sparring with himself in x10 gravity. Celipa has been dead for decades and would not perform a fusion.
Vegeta got that strong by abusing zenkais, which only had that effect because he was already an absurdly naturally powerful warrior who just never got all of that dormant power unlocked before. He sat on his ass for his whole life and yet still surpassed the mightiest warrior of the north galaxy's most feared warrior race at age twelve. That's why he keeps bragging about his high class status and royal blood all throughout the saiyan and Freeza sagas.
And final form Freeza totally could have just vaporized him at any time.
One, no, he never mastered a transformation. He didn't do that until waaaaay later at the Cell Games. Two, he was already quite strong and had the power level to become a Super Saiyan in the Freeza arc (and likely the power to whoop 19, who appeared to be quite weak compared to Freeza or the Super Saiyans). It was mostly a mental thing by that point, as Goku and Freeza pointed out. He also got stronger in base by working his ass off for five years straight in x400 Earth's gravity.
edited 28th Feb '14 11:13:23 AM by sockpuppet1
Vegeta got that strong by abusing zenkais, which only had that effect because he was already an absurdly naturally powerful warrior who just never got all of that dormant power unlocked before.
And final form Freeza totally could have just vaporized him at any time.
Yes. Piccolo got a Plot Powerup. Vegeta got several Plot Powerups. Even Krillin and Gohan got Plot Powerups via Guru to make them not die instantly in their next sets of combat. The show passes out power-ups like candy.
If the show wanted Yamcha to be able to fight Majin Buu, then he would discover incredible latent power deep inside himself, fuse with an ancient alien god spirit, or something else would happen to increase his power level and then he would fight Majin Buu. Anyone can gain ultimate power at any point by virtue of plot. The show passes out power-ups as needed, consistency be damned.
Quit trying so hard to justify this.
edited 28th Feb '14 11:14:14 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Actually, no, he wouldn't, as that would violate all pre-established logic, while fusions and zenkais have consistent logic. Piccolo and Vegeta are also repeatedly stated and shown to be prodigies of tremendous natural strength; and prodigies of particularly powerful and in Piccolo's case outright mystic races as well. Nail even said that Piccolo would defeat FREEZA if he were to become his original self again.
Yamcha's too weak to ever do anything to any form of Buu, even if he gets Guru's power-up, then the super god water power-up, then Old Kai's power-up, then Potara fuses with a AU version of himself with the same power-ups. Even Fat Buu would just laugh and smack him down. These power-ups do all exist, but there's a consistency to them, they don't just give completely random boosts to anyone like you seem to think.
I'm not, I'm just repeating what the story already told us. I don't need to justify it because it's all right there in the original text.
edited 28th Feb '14 11:17:54 AM by sockpuppet1
Fusions and zenkais were invented as needed. The show invented Namekian fusion just so that Piccolo could fight Frieza. The zenkai was invented to justify Vegeta's repeated power expansion. Do you want more examples?
- Guru used his powers to draw out Gohan and Krillin's "hidden potential", greatly increasing their power levels.
- The entire concept of the Super Saiyan transformation, while heavily foreshadowed, exists specifically so that Goku can pull a giant well of power out of nowhere and suddenly be more powerful than Frieza.
- Super Saiyan 2 serves the exact same purpose, allowing Gohan to pull even more power out of nowhere and defeat Cell.
- The Fusion Dance was introduced in the Buu Saga to allow two characters to combine into a fighter with, say it with me, a substantially increased power level.
- Goku invented Super Saiyan 3 offscreen to have another avenue of greatly improving his power level whenever needed. Gotenks, after learning that they were still not powerful enough to fight Buu, learned the Super Saiyan 3 transformation offscreen too so that the next fight could go differently.
- Vegeta, conversely, settled for the Majin upgrade, in which Babidi puts a magic mark on someone's forehead and their power level skyrockets.
- As for Gohan, an old man meditated at him for a long time, causing his power level to skyrocket to well above Super Buu.
And that's not getting into movie asspulls like Super Saiyan God, anything from GT, or anything the villains can do to make their power level shoot up. Seriously, this is a pointless discussion. A character's power level is not, in any way, shape, or form, a hindrance to being able to fight in the next big battle, because Toriyama comes up with excuses to power up characters as needed.
edited 28th Feb '14 11:31:48 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.What kind of sense does that make? By that logic, power-ups should never have been introduced at all, because they'd always come off as cheap. Fusions and zenkais were repeatedly used throughout the story and have their own sets of rules.
A mystic and powerful ability used by a physical god, with its own restrictions. Anyone could get it, it just wouldn't do a whole lot for them against the caliber of opponents faced after Freeza.
I fail to see how that's a problem. As noted, it was foreshadowed, has clearly defined limits and function, and eventually becomes a whole branch of separate transformations.
There was a whole subplot about all of the characters training for years upon years in the ROSAT to discover a level beyond SS. Gohan, having both done the training (smart training, thanks to his father) and being born with enormous ability on top of that, was the first to attain it.
Yes. So? That's like saying training to get stronger is cheap and bullshit, because by this point fusion had already been used several times. It also again has defined limits and restrictions; only Goten and Trunks could actually use it, due to body and power differences in the rest of the main cast. The only exception would be Goku + Vegeta, but that wasn't ever an option in the arc up to that point. It's not the same thing as just bringing out Yamcha and saying "HE IS NOW 1,000,000 TIMES STRONGER BECAUSE I SAID SO".
If anything, criticize Potara. It was a new fusion method introduced at the last minute that was 100 times better than the other already established fusion methods, invented solely to give Goku and Vegeta a way to stop Buuhan.
What? How does training for seven years straight in the Afterlife with other powerful fighters and gods count as a cheap, out-of-nowhere power up? Does any power boost ever to you count as cheap and nonsensical? How is this in any way comparable to suddenly making Yamcha stronger than Buu?
It wasn't even that big of a boost, and was just a much weaker version of the power-up established two arcs ago. It's possible because Babidi is explicitly established from the get-go as a wizard.
That was simply finally revolving the whole dormant power sub plot he had going, by getting a super-duper-special 'transformation' from the God of Gods.
Don't care about the movies and GT (though even then only Movie 4, Movie 13, and Movie 14 just pulled crap out of nowhere), and quite frankly BOG can go screw itself.
What do the villains do? Vegeta doesn't raise his power except through a transformation that's been there since the beginning of DB. Freeza pulls "I was only using 2.7% of power, now I will use 34.8% and crush you!", but he doesn't actually raise his power over the course of the story. Until he gets mechanized, but even then it's a minor easily explained boost that he never gets to show off. Cell absorbs people, but that's not really raising his power, just catalysts to access his real power (plus it's firmly established the minute he is and doesn't come out of nowhere, as it has a backstory). Buu can absorb people, but again that's a clearly defined ability with limits and a back story, and he can't just raise himself infinitely, he can only take what the heroes have to offer.
Actually, it is. That's why everybody except Goku, Gotenks, and Gohan was completely irrelevant against even the weakest form of Majin Buu. Sorry Vegeta and Piccolo, you may have been the badasses of the last arc, but your power levels aren't high enough to matter anymore. And humans... you guys stopped mattering the minute Freeza went to his final form.
edited 28th Feb '14 1:24:21 PM by sockpuppet1
DBZ isn't anywhere near sexist. It doesn't try to "hold down women." This is martial arts show, and like it or not, most prominent martial artists are men. The show, at the very least, gave you guys 18, who utterly shitstomped a prominent character. Yes, she fell by the wayside, but how many other male characters did too?
Naruto, and Fairy Tail are highly sexist series, so take your complaints there.
What Tobias is saying in all that text is if Toriyama wanted to keep Celipa around he would've found some excuse to justify it.
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What sockpuppet is saying is that the powerups we've seen have clearly defined limits and it would take some new, probably badly-executed one to make someone as weak as Celipa relevant. It would require too many leaps in logic.
edited 28th Feb '14 2:35:46 PM by Cruherrx
"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."I hate what it's become.
Sometime, I can still enjoy it on an one time basis.
Plus, the anime has great tunes.
One Strip! One Strip!
Fairy Tail in my opinion struggles to find it's own identity. I mean it has a good concept but it hasn't been able to find the right execution at which you would go "Oh yeah, that something you'd only see in Fairy Tail."
I mean, look at it this way in comparison with other shonen manga:
- When you think of Dragon Ball, great battles comes to mind
- When you think of One Piece, great stories and adventures comes to mind
- When you think of Naruto, great symbolism comes to mind
- When you think of Bleach, great and unique abilities come to mind
- When you think of Yu Yu Hakusho, great characters comes to mind
- When you think of Jo Jo's Bizarre Adventure, great art comes to mind
- When you think of Fairy Tail... nothing to comes to mind
I mean there are huge cast of characters and dozens of fights scattered across several arcs in Fairy Tail but if you don't care for the characters or the fights, that's a sign of lackluster writing.
I also agree with Cruherrx that Fairy Tail, along with Naruto, are quite sexist. I mean if you a women in Fairy Tail, you either a Mary Sue (*cough*Erza*cough*) or dress in skimpy or borderline whoreish outfits (*cough*Lucy*cough*). While in Naruto, if you're a woman you're either Faux Action Girl (*cough*Sakura*cough*),told to Stay in the Kitchen (*cough*Kurenai*cough*) or just cannon fodder (*cough*Tenten*cough*).
But, like I've said before, women in shonen manga always get dealt a lousier hand on average in comparison to male characters. That's just how it is and how it always will be.
Dragon Ball is somewhat sexist. Not ridiculously so, but it still is. And again, 18 is a smug and worthless load who didn't even attain her power naturally or earn it.
I've never gotten the "most martial artists are males" defense. Mostly because this series already features 8 year olds kicking the shit out of eight foot tall muscle bound freaks. I'd also much rather be an average girl fighting 6'1 200+ lbs me than be me fighting someone the size of Nappa (to say nothing of 5'9 Goku). Or be 5'3 like Vegeta and fight a 7'6 monster like fucking Recoome. If physical differences don't matter in DB for children and small to average sized men, why should they suddenly matter to women?
edited 28th Feb '14 7:38:36 PM by Sockpuppet1
All media is sexist to some degree, in either or both directions. It's an inevitable consequence of Most Writers Are Human.
Dragon Ball is fairly okay, even if the male-to-female ratio is rather hilariously skewed. Though, that may be why DBZ has a fairly large female fanbase anyway.
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!Dragon Ball isn't sexist. Not having female fighters doesn't make something sexist, it's sexist when you send the message that women aren't as capable as men. Simply not having female fighters doesn't do this, and Dragon Ball shows that women can be capable when Chi-Chi reaches Roshi's level without the super training everybody else gets and Videl is stronger than most people without any kind of special training, including her father. Then there's 18 who easily beats up Super Saiyan Vegeta and Trunks, and whose future counterpart is part of the duo who kills the Z team and ravages the world.
Plenty of people got free power ups, 18's not the only one. And I don't see why that would be sexist anyway.
I think that is giving a bit too much of a defense to the actual issues both socially and in the series. It's okay to like things with issues as long as you recognize the issues.
...And the "in either or both directions" thing is. And the "just human" thing as well are. Um.
Yeah, no. Society has some major aspects and stigmas that are rather unidirectional, although, quite frankly, implying there is some sort of a thing as a "direction" at all seems to rather spectacularly miss the point.
Men are usually looked down upon for being too feminine. Women are usually looked down upon for being too masculine or too feminine.
...I really don't feel like starting this right now.
But anyway. Japan has it's own set of cultural norms regarding masculinity and femininity, and the roles of men and women and such. Every culture has something like that. And the cultural norms always filter through. It's big, it's part of the collective unconscious and...
...Screw it, I don't have time or energy for this.
I'm not exactly seeing what contradicts my point. If anything, that's supportive of it. It is, on some level, subconscious. Perhaps you simply misunderstood my statements.
Regardless, I don't find Dragon Ball to be overtly sexist. Not much more than just about anything else, at least.
edited 28th Feb '14 8:09:52 PM by Anomalocaris20
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!Hmmm.
We need to be careful with this one, it sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.
I would point out that while she didn't ask for it (and had a pretty strong hate for the one responsible) 18 did kinda get a random power up in the form of the Android conversion from Gero.
Really, without it, she's just a random street thug; I bet she and 17 didn't even get any formal martial arts training. She probably just relied on her raw power and the never gets tired thing.
It's fortunate Gero didn't design a way for them to grow in power, or the Androids would have been major game breakers.
One Strip! One Strip!Fairy Tail has an awesome female cast - much better than its fellow big name shounen like Naruto or One Piece or DBZ.
Also I agree with Sockpuppet. That "most martial artists are men" excuse doesn't fly. It's the same reason people try to defend Rurouni Kenshin and how the most prominent women there is Kaoru and she is worthless. "It's realistic! Japan didn't have a lot of female fighters then111" It also didn't have multi-story giants as far as I can recall. A female fighters who can compete with the high-tier men is a tad more believable, don't you think?
edited 1st Mar '14 1:39:35 AM by Nikkolas
I never doubted that some of the female cast of Fairy Tail can be good, I just despise how Mary Sue-ish some of them can get, Erza being worst the offender, who literally relies on Ass Pulls or the Power of Friendship, as if it were a tangible source of power, to win 90% of her fights.
I would definitely take One Piece's female cast of characters over Fairy Tail's, Naruto's, Bleach's or Dragon Ball's female cast of characters any day of the week. Purely for the fact I actually care about what happens to them.
For what it's worth, Rurouni Kenshin is based during the Meiji period, with obvious liberties being taken, but society was legitimately overtly sexist during that period, women didn't have any rights and it was pretty much a law at that time for women to Stay in the Kitchen, regardless of what class of in society you were in, so Rurouni Kenshin get a pass. (And yes, I did do the research on the Meiji period.)
I've never really heard the whole "most martial artists are men" excuse before until now, but for what's it worth I did the research, and it's arguably another case of Truth in Television. I mean look at the amount of notable female
mixed martial artists in comparison to men
... pretty one sided, ain't it? And don't even get me started on boxing and wrestling...
edited 1st Mar '14 7:02:51 AM by FireShadow

Of course, that's why Tarble is such a power house and why they brought back Raditz to fight Freeza.
What is this about death being meaningless? Celipa's soul was already purified and reincarnated, she can't even be brought back anymore. And you have to be a "special" saiyan to become a SS (unless you're name is Bardock).
edited 28th Feb '14 11:08:29 AM by sockpuppet1