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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#53951: Mar 10th 2017 at 6:20:01 PM

... The difference between Goten and Trunks and everyone around them is so gigantic, if any of those opponents is even remotely a threat to Goku and Vegeta, that the difference between Goten and Trunks and, say, Roshi, is basically meaningless.

They're no more useful, and they are more likely to do something stupid. Just because it's an accident doesn't mean it couldn't be prevented by not bringing the dumb children along on an important tournament.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53952: Mar 10th 2017 at 6:25:08 PM

Rationalizing. Why are you assuming everyone is going to be a threat to Goku and Vegeta? By the same logic no one else might as well come.

Until give reason other wise, we should assume that Goten and Trunks are leagues above Roshi and Tien. Teamwork wise, the same can likely be said for at least Roshi. If they're even a bit harder to knock out, and a bit better at working with people, that makes them the better choice.

Going "they're dumb children" is just ridiculous considering how much children have been involved in things in this series. Going "they're more likely to make things worse" only makes sense if you ignore how often the adults in this series has done stupid shit to make things worse. Age has nothing to do with it.

None of what you're saying holds up.

edited 10th Mar '17 6:27:12 PM by LSBK

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#53953: Mar 10th 2017 at 6:26:36 PM

Why have two guys whose strongest move is causing the team to have only nine members?

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#53954: Mar 10th 2017 at 6:28:01 PM

Ya know the idea of both Trunks & Goten being Tien's superior depresses me a little.

The man is an elite warrior with decades of experience with no signs of slowing down & unlike the rest of the cast has not retired meaning he's still training so the idea of two young children already being his superior is BS, power scaling be damned.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Gehayadren Bad Movie Binge Collector from A Garbage Fire Since: Jun, 2016 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#53955: Mar 10th 2017 at 6:28:20 PM

[up][up]If they become Vegito again, I'll spray my beverage out and wish that LSSB Broly becomes reality.

edited 10th Mar '17 6:28:39 PM by Gehayadren

Ha ha ha. What a story, Mark.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53956: Mar 10th 2017 at 6:29:25 PM

[up][up][up]My response to that is why have two guys who could easily be killed by those two guys?

Seriously, the "they're dumb/unpredictable" argument stopped being legitimate as soon as Majin Buu was considered a viable candidate.

edited 10th Mar '17 6:31:49 PM by LSBK

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#53957: Mar 10th 2017 at 6:30:29 PM

[up][up][up] Oh please, age never mattered in Dragon Ball.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#53958: Mar 10th 2017 at 6:32:41 PM

Rationalizing. Why are you assuming everyone is going to be a threat to Goku and Vegeta? By the same logic no one else might as well come.

The only relevant opponents are gonna be the ones who are a threat to Goku and Vegeta. Other opponents are just there for show. In this regard, there's literally no difference between Goten and Trunks and Tien and Roshi - the opponents they face will either one-shot them or be around their level, regardless.

Until give reason other wise, we should assume that Goten and Trunks are leagues above Roshi and Tien. Teamwork wise, the same can likely be said for at least Roshi.

I'm not saying anything to the contrary. Of course they are leagues above them unless something explicitly says the contrary. However, just because they're more powerful doesn't mean they're more useful.

Going "they're dumb children" is just ridiculous considering how much children have been involved in things in this series. Going "they're more likely to make things worse" only makes sense if you ignore how often the adults in this series has done stupid shit to make things worse. None of it holds up.

Oh, because the children should totally be involved in this because children have been involved in a lot of things in this series. Because that would totally justify bringing along the kids who don't really care about training or fighting, who also don't really have any sort of discipline.

Furthermore, Goten and Trunks had an important task once, and all the means necessary to succeed at it.

They fucked it up. Not because of arrogance or because they wanted a better fight. They fucked it up because they were incompetent. Sure, children might have been involved in a lot of stuff, but those children were not Goten and Trunks, those children grew up in a completely different environment, in completely different situations, and were completely different to Goten and Trunks as a result.

edited 10th Mar '17 6:34:24 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#53959: Mar 10th 2017 at 6:33:26 PM

Yeah, Gohan was kicking ass back when he was 5, and killed Cell at the age of 9.

edited 10th Mar '17 6:34:31 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#53960: Mar 10th 2017 at 6:34:29 PM

Going "they're dumb children" is just ridiculous considering how much children have been involved in things in this series. Going "they're more likely to make things worse" only makes sense if you ignore how often the adults in this series has done stupid shit to make things worse. Age has nothing to do with it.

But they are dumb kids. When they first achieved Fusion, they ran off and fought Buu before they were ready. They continually failed to treat the situation with the gravitas that it deserved (even after Goten saw his mother murdered in front of him). Their fucking around in the Hyper tonic lion tamer Room of Time and Spirit while fighting Super Buu lead to Piccolo jumping the gun and blowing up the door, and then when they finally did get serious, they ran out of time before they could finish him.

And that's ignoring that Buu was apparently just killing time until Gohan showed up anyway.

Goten and Trunks are not reliable in the slightest and should not be fighting, hight Power Levels be damned.

Edit: Let me just add that Chi-chi and Bulma would not want them to fight either. Chi-chi seems to be clamping down on Goten getting involved in such things, and Bulma deliberately tried to keep Trunks (and Goten by default) from getting involved in the big Frieza fight in both versions of Resurrection F. Everyone knows it's a bad idea.

edited 10th Mar '17 6:37:06 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53961: Mar 10th 2017 at 6:34:36 PM

[up][up][up]If your first argument is "nobody but Goku and Vegeta matters anyway" then you destroyed any meaning your other points might have had.

And, note, I don't really want Goten and Trunks, I'd actually prefer to say Tien and Roshi, I think it would be more interesting. I just don't see the reason in trying to rationalize fanservice as something more or logical.

edited 10th Mar '17 6:36:13 PM by LSBK

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#53962: Mar 10th 2017 at 6:36:19 PM

Wait well if its just pure power then I can concede Trunks & Goten are superior but they lack the necessary skill & experience that makes Tien & Roshi more preferable.

I mean Tien has more shit under his belt after all. The kids only got Super Saiyan & Fusion but that's it.

edited 10th Mar '17 6:38:19 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#53963: Mar 10th 2017 at 6:36:53 PM

If your first argument is "nobody but Goku and Vegeta matters anyway" then you destroyed any meaning your other points might have had.

Goten and Trunks have literally the same chance of being useful against the relevant opponents as Tien and Roshi do, but the latter two have less chances of doing something stupid that fucks the team over somehow. That's my point.

My point being that in terms of in-universe usefulness, all four of them are meaningless because you can be damned sure that there will be several opponents on Goku and Vegeta's level. Any of which would one-hit-kill Goten and Trunks before either of them could even blink. Ultimately, it makes no difference, and that's my point.

From Doyle's perspective, it also makes no difference - they're either gonna job or will get one or two interesting fight scenes, regardless of how much sense it makes.

edited 10th Mar '17 6:39:16 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#53965: Mar 10th 2017 at 6:57:03 PM

That point is complete bullcrap and full of huge assumptions. There aren't really any realistic scenarios where the kids could actually become a liability, despite their stupidity. The tournament would have to have really unusual rules for that to be the case, and we've already seen that it doesn't.

Furthermore, it's incorrect that Goten and Trunks are just as useless against Goku/Vegeta level threats. Future Trunks was able to bullshit out some usefulness in the Black arc, and he's normally not that much stronger than the boys (plus, he's weaker than Gotenks).

It's a pure rationalization. We've never seen a situation in the series where the presence of Roshi/Ten could have been more useful than the boys.

In a battle royale, power absolutely matters. They aren't guaranteed to go up against Vegeta or Goku tier opponents. Things like double knock outs, or unexpected knockouts in the chaos are far more likely than Goten/Trunks somehow being a detriment to the team. And if the most powerful opponents got eliminated before the weaker ones were, then you'd want your backups to be as powerful as possible for them to have the best chance of succeeding once the big guys go down.

[up][up][up] Hahahaha... no. No amount of skill and experience can bridge that power gap. Skill only matters in the real world because you can't be thousands of times stronger than someone. Besides, Dragon Ball doesn't often make a big deal of characters' skill and experience, and shows that if you have similar power you can easily hold your own in hand to hand with someone more experienced than you.

edited 10th Mar '17 7:01:09 PM by Saiga

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53966: Mar 10th 2017 at 7:01:19 PM

Seriously, the point of this is having as many people on your side standing. How strong they are absolutely matters, and Ten and Roshi are nothing compared to Goten and Trunks, and are therefore much more likely to get knocked out than them. I fail to see how this is complicated. Even if you assume in the grand scheme of things that only means Goten and Trunks .00001% less likely to get knocked out than the other two, in the situation, that absolutely matters.

edited 10th Mar '17 7:05:18 PM by LSBK

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#53967: Mar 10th 2017 at 7:08:49 PM

Furthermore, it's incorrect that Goten and Trunks are just as useless against Goku/Vegeta level threats. Future Trunks was able to bullshit out some usefulness in the Black arc, and he's normally not that much stronger than the boys (plus, he's weaker than Gotenks).

Fine. How about this. Trunks and Goten are useless because they are fuck ups. Roshi and Tien are equally useless because they are probably far too weak.

Because rest assured, after how badly they dropped the ball in the Buu saga, they should not be involved in any battles until they take a level in maturity. Gohan was more responsible when he was 5 goddamn years old, even if he was weaker. At least he understood how dangerous the battles were, something those two never got through their heads.

One Strip! One Strip!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#53968: Mar 10th 2017 at 7:15:46 PM

You say that all I do is rationalization, but all you're doing is insisting that they're stronger and that there's no feasible way that they'd be a worse option just because they're stronger.

Thing is, I can totally see Goten and Trunks doing something stupid like provoking an opponent that can take them out in one hit, where in the same situation I could see Tien and Roshi standing down and letting someone stronger take care of it. You know, like they've been doing since they were outclassed.

I can totally see Goten and Trunks finding a way to fuck up. They're creative, if nothing else.

If it comes down to how many are standing at the end, I'd rather have people mature enough to stay out of the way.

edited 10th Mar '17 7:16:25 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#53969: Mar 10th 2017 at 7:17:51 PM
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#53970: Mar 10th 2017 at 7:22:42 PM

As long as we're talking about how the show will rationalize it, there was that scene a couple episode ago

Vegeta: I can't go to that Exhibition thing because my wife is giving birth, why don't you ask your son?

*Gohan and Trunks are training*

Goku: Well we don't know what we'll be up against. Those boys aren't yet-

*sudden realization*

Goku: Oh yeah Gohan exists.

UdtheImp from Stamford, CT (Series 2) Relationship Status: The Skitty to my Wailord
#53971: Mar 10th 2017 at 7:43:08 PM

Hell, Majin Buu is probably more competant than Goten and Trunks, and he's a dumbass!

..............

Hear me out.

Much of Buu's stupidity comes from mainly his lack of understanding, and near hyper focus on his own personal interests. For example, after being first released, he was mildly annoyed by Babidi bossing him around but let it slide due to having too much fun with himsepf, and only actually realized the wizard only used him and bullied him when actually pointed it out by an outside party. Once Buu realized that, he betrayed Babidi on his own. Hercule then completely stopped Buu from destroying humanity by actively telling Buu that killing people is wrong, and then became good for the rest of the series. Recently, in the battle against Basil, Buu did not take the fight seriously because he was told beforehand to have fun with it, which he did. However, the times Buu got serious, he really got serious, as best exemplified where he destroyed Basil when he learned Hercule got hurt during the match and fighting against Kid Buu.

Only time Buu really dropped the ball was not letting Beerus have any pudding, but that is easily explained as food, especially sweets, being Buu's primary motivator after Satan and Bee, and because no one knew Beerus was both a God of Destruction and that incredibly petty.

DAMMIT MARK, STOP HITTING HELPY!!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#53972: Mar 10th 2017 at 8:24:34 PM

I don't get why this is an argument. Dragon Ball Super is no stranger to fanservice, so it absolutely shouldn't surprise to see Tien and Roshi being picked over Goten and Trunks.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#53973: Mar 10th 2017 at 8:30:36 PM

This person speaks sense.

Super is pure fanservice.

Do not question it.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#53974: Mar 10th 2017 at 8:40:33 PM

Roshi and Tenshinhan are vastly more important characters than Goten and Trunks, looking at the series as a whole, so it makes sense for them to be picked over the kids. Hell, for all we know, Roshi and Tenshinhan are now more powerful than Goten and Trunks are because Reasons™.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53975: Mar 10th 2017 at 8:52:58 PM

Pfft, Roshi maybe but Tien? And even with Roshi "vastly more important" seems a bit of an overstatement.

And, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they do say "Tien and Roshi are stronger than Goten and Trunks", but that doesn't mean it's going to mesh well at all with anything else we've seen of any of the characters involved or their potential.

Edit: And that's not even getting into the argument of whether Super should be living in the past instead of trying to actually advance the future, because there are more than a few hints it's more interested in being a fanservice/nostalgia kick .

edited 10th Mar '17 9:01:29 PM by LSBK


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