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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#53826: Mar 9th 2017 at 9:39:27 AM

I've been thinking that a situation like this might happen, and that the big character payoff of the arc is Goku making his big rival realize that he's not good or evil or complicit shounen-style: through fighting. And then the climactic moment is the rival's universe winning, but them deciding to their wish to save everyone including Universe 7.

That'd be the best way to go, which is pretty interesting for all parties involved.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#53827: Mar 9th 2017 at 9:46:47 AM

Understanding someone through fighting is a shonnen staple.

I'm not sure if it's a dragon ball staple however.

Toppo's fight with Goku might not run long enough for him to get a proper read (since we know it will be interrupted), so it'll be up to Jiren come tournament time to really get a feel for Goku and his motives.

One Strip! One Strip!
UdtheImp from Stamford, CT (Series 2) Relationship Status: The Skitty to my Wailord
#53828: Mar 9th 2017 at 10:42:27 AM

[up]From what I remember from the original manga, Goku came off as more careless, inconsiderate, and outright stupid rather than selfish. While not altruistic, he will always help people who were clearly in trouble, especially if it requires beating up bullies to solve said problem. At least that's how it was back before the Z phase 9f the franchise.

@Mighty Matilda: Yes. Yes I did.

DAMMIT MARK, STOP HITTING HELPY!!
BigBlackBangBro Time Stranger Since: Sep, 2016
Time Stranger
#53829: Mar 9th 2017 at 11:09:42 AM

Am crazy for thinking the Grand Priest/Zeno rule that if Goku didn't go all it he would destroy all universes seem kinda tact on? I doubt Goku was gonna throw the fight anyways.

35 year old white man.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#53830: Mar 9th 2017 at 11:12:21 AM

It's a necessary thing to say, if only for the audience, so that we don't think less of Goku for annihilating Bergamo in a situation where doing so is objectively the worst thing to do.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53831: Mar 9th 2017 at 11:14:08 AM

Plus, I totally believe that Omni-king would react that way in the situation.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#53832: Mar 9th 2017 at 11:17:46 AM

Huh after looking at him and hearing him looks like Jiren might be more the serious type.

What if hes more like an American hero instead of the Japanese Sentai one Toppo follows where he does not do flamboyant poses or flowerly speeches & is instead simple and straight to the point like say Superman or Captain America.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#53833: Mar 9th 2017 at 11:25:51 AM

... so. Apparently I'm not alone in being put off by the direction of the anime recently.

I actually came here kinda hoping that the manga was already way further and people could reassure me that it doesn't turn out as stupid as it seems now. I was already frustrated weeks ago when it turned out Goku is to blame for the inevitable death of a near infinite number of lives and everyone just reacted like "this makes me angry because it could mean that we die" or "geez he's so irresponsible" instead of, like... that being the greatest tragedy in the history of the multiverse? Although of course gods don't care about anything and apparently Zeno gets to just play games where entire planets get destroyed for no reason, because it wasn't ridiculous enough when every villain gets to just blow up a planet to show what a jerk they are. That just makes the entire setting so cruel and uncaring that I don't see how it expects me to care about anything or anyone. Except of course it expects me to cheer for the guys on our team, because we know them and they are with us so that makes them good. And clearly the other guys are ugly and evil, see? The wolfman was so rude. Look at how underhandedly he actually tried to save all the universes.

... it's... it's pretty bad when a series actually makes me cheer for the "bad guys" to win. I think that might actually be a first for me.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#53834: Mar 9th 2017 at 11:37:12 AM

I don't really think that we're supposed to see the other universes as bad guys. Heck, the apparent main rivals are essentially Power Rangers. I don't know exactly where this is going, but the Zen-Os (and the Grand Priest to a lesser extent) are the clear antagonistic force this time around and the only reason they aren't proper villains is how much stronger they are than everyone else.

This song needs more love.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#53835: Mar 9th 2017 at 11:40:01 AM

[up][up]Rooting for the Empire is not an unfamiliar occurrence.

I'm curious as to how the manga will go to be honest. What points the two adaptations share will determine how much of what we're seeing is just Toei being Toei, and how much is Toriyama being Toriyama.

I do agree with the idea of the universe being too uncaring and perhaps cruel.

Like I said before, as far back as the Red Ribbon arc, the world was ruled by assholes until Goku beat them up. I know everyone has countered by claim about the Red having the power to already take over the world, but with the legitimate government being completely helpless to stop them, exactly who would have fought them?

This thing with Zen-O is just another in a long line of dicks who can do what they want because they are stronger than everyone else. The only difference between him and everyone else is that he's less malicious about it.

edited 9th Mar '17 11:40:12 AM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#53836: Mar 9th 2017 at 11:52:35 AM

Like Shulgo said, Goku doesn't care if the other universes hate him and probably welcomes it because it means he'll get a better fight. That's all this is to him, a game. And nobody but the other universes really seem to be holding it against him. Gohan seems excited to see how he can improve, and I'm sure everyone else will be down too.

In short, I think the audience cares far more about Goku's attitude than the series does. At the end of the arc, they'll all shake hands and go about their business.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#53837: Mar 9th 2017 at 11:52:36 AM

Well now I want Universe 7 to win the tournament, Zen'ou to destroy the other universes, and Goku to wish to resurrect King Kai or some other pointless shit. And then from next episode on, the whole thing is never mentioned again.

The outrage would be glorious. evil grin

Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#53838: Mar 9th 2017 at 12:00:26 PM

[up][up] ... The way you're saying that makes it sound like those are supposed to be reasons why I shouldn't be annoyed by it, rather than being the exact things that annoy me. I don't care about the other universes hating him. That he treats the death of an infinite number of innocent people as part of a game and especially the fact that the conflict is framed in such a way that the series wants us to root for him and even the reasonable Gohan doesn't seem to care... is really annoying.

... I'm really not sure what your post is supposed to mean. If the audience cares about something and the series doesn't, that means the series is losing its audience and is a fault on its part.

edited 9th Mar '17 12:00:40 PM by Fawriel

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#53839: Mar 9th 2017 at 12:04:11 PM

Does the narrative want the viewer to root for Kakarrot?

That's important...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#53840: Mar 9th 2017 at 12:09:09 PM

[up][up] I mean, that wasn't really directed at anyone in particular, I was just stating a point. If you don't care about the direction of this arc then (shrug). Dragon Ball isn't really the series that focuses on the moral complexities of it's characters, and I don't expect that to change now.

It's annoying, but it is what it is. And besides, we still get cool fights out of the whole thing :)

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
BigBlackBangBro Time Stranger Since: Sep, 2016
Time Stranger
#53841: Mar 9th 2017 at 12:16:41 PM

This arc is written in funny way. It's kinda Goku's fault but not really? All Universes will be destroyed but death isn't allowed? And I'm pretty sure Goku is gonna wish back the destroyed. Even at its heaviest DBS can't be too mature.

35 year old white man.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#53842: Mar 9th 2017 at 12:24:57 PM

They can't be offed during the tournament so they can feel the process of being erased when it's time for the Universes to go away.

Because Zen-O is unintentionally cruel like that.

edited 9th Mar '17 12:29:08 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Fawriel Since: Jan, 2001
#53843: Mar 9th 2017 at 12:30:22 PM

Right, I getcha. I always get confused when people respond to me and I can't tell if they're arguing against me or just adding something. Communication is hard.

But yeah, DBZ has never been about deep moral issues or anything. But... this isn't a terribly complex issue. Infinity innocent people dead for no good reason is mondo bad not good thing. And... I hope this doesn't sound arrogant or anything, but I don't find the fights terribly exciting to watch in themselves. The only interesting thing about them to me is the character dynamics, and I can't say I'm terribly invested in them, but the only thing that makes the anime a more interesting way to kill time than a Let's Play or such is the fact that Goku and folks are essentially modern legends that I grew up with and it's interesting to see how they keep growing. I'm particularly interested in actually seeing some non-Saiyans actually get to do anything for once, maybe. Although the battle royale format makes that seem dubious now, too.

I mean, I dunno, even if the fights were exciting, I can't get into it if I don't care for the characters. A friend tried to show me Wanted because it's got such great action according to him and he was so indignant when I was utterly bored by it because none of the wooshy-swooshies matter to me when the guy I'm supposed to root for is an asshole I don't care about and I'm actually more invested in the random people on the train who have to die because they got pulled into an over the top action scene.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#53844: Mar 9th 2017 at 12:37:39 PM

Sometimes it's about the journey than the protagonist...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#53845: Mar 9th 2017 at 12:40:30 PM

Well you do have to be emotionally invested in the fights. The best fights are not just the prettiest ones but with the best build-up. Thats why the climax of Gohan vs. Cell is so amazing, everything was at its emotional peak.

Also as noted on Supers broken base page, its only the West that have issues with Goku's character. I'm curious is this true, do the Japanese have no problem with how he is portrayed right now?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#53846: Mar 9th 2017 at 1:47:22 PM

Gohan seems to be optimistically holding out on hope that whatever happens, they can fix it. His reaction upon first finding out was one of pure shock and horror, after all, but it doesn't do him any good to keep acting like that now, when they're supposed to be focusing on the fight and keeping the Zenos from getting pissed off.

Until we see his further reaction outside of a combat situation, I don't know if we can say he has abruptly stopped caring.

edited 9th Mar '17 1:48:00 PM by KnownUnknown

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53847: Mar 9th 2017 at 1:53:20 PM

I mean, wasn't that Goku's reaction? He was advised against trying to talk the Kings out of it.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#53848: Mar 9th 2017 at 2:07:57 PM

Yeah, and then someone did exactly that and used it to make Goku a villain.

Maybe it was the way Bergamo did it. Goku would have just asked in a careless way, while Bergamo set it up as part of a way to make the match more interesting.

One Strip! One Strip!
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
BigBlackBangBro Time Stranger Since: Sep, 2016
Time Stranger
#53850: Mar 9th 2017 at 2:19:40 PM

[up][up]Bergarmo cut a promo on Goku. Had the crowd eating at the palm of his hands.

35 year old white man.

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