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Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#53801: Mar 9th 2017 at 3:16:27 AM

[up] Of course it isn't his fault, but it's the way he's acting that's getting to everybody, both in-universe and out.

Before you could say he was being absent-minded, but after the previous episode really feels like he's going full-on blood knight. He's not evil, but his purity seems to be fading away. Not that I hate this development like most other people in the fandom, I actually find this refreshing and am wondering where Toriyama is taking this approach.

I want to see how far Toriyama is going to take Goku before he breaks him.

edited 9th Mar '17 3:17:37 AM by Rinsankajugin

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#53802: Mar 9th 2017 at 3:19:36 AM

Yeah it be interesting if his love of battle is becoming so great actually corrupting him. Something shocks him to the point of humbling him.

Also I hope were introduced to Jiren soon cause I'm kinda worried he might not be as important as the OP made him out to be.

edited 9th Mar '17 3:20:05 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#53803: Mar 9th 2017 at 3:44:29 AM

Thing is, Goku being pure of heart has never been about him being good and you're all ranting and raving about how you want to see him get his comeuppance when...

What exactly has Goku done here that is so wrong that he deserves this kind of scorn? Yeah, he's not a super sympathetic good guy... but he has never really been.

He's not Space Jesus.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#53804: Mar 9th 2017 at 3:56:50 AM

Lack of empathy and considering of the consequences of his actions. He says "Bring it on." to the other 7 universes without considering that maybe he shouldn't land his own universe in such a disadvantage. It's like the Senzu Bean incident. Yes, Gohan can win easily, but being more pragmatic and not screwing over your own chances just in case is a good thing.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#53805: Mar 9th 2017 at 3:58:51 AM

I don't think he is.

But to say he's not good to some degree is to say the Devilmite Beam never existed.

We're also bringing up the animated version of Goku which takes more from Toei's adaption of the character, who is Space Jesus, so it's far more jarring to have a less empathetic Goku. Goku literally was able to read minds at one point and predict a person's sword swings.

And before we go to "Goku was never an overly good person in the manga" I highly doubt there isn't at least one moment where Goku can be discerned as morally righteous. The nimbus cloud might not distinguish "good" from "pure" but it does let Roshi fall on his ass because he's a lech, so that and the Devilmite Beam target people's foibles.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#53806: Mar 9th 2017 at 4:00:30 AM

You know, Goku didn't really give one Universe a chance. Zen-Oh always thought that there were 'too many Universes' with no mention of any pre-existing plans to destroy them. The Mortal Levels came about as a direct result of watching the U6/U7 tournament, and they didn't exist beforehand. Yeah, for all we know, Goku gave 1 of the lower 8 Universes a fighting chance and Zen-Oh was always going to let U1, U5, U8, and U12 live, but that's not actually stated anywhere. For all we know, if Goku hadn't had brought up the tournament to Zen-Oh, they would've never acted on those feelings that there were too many universes, or they would've only taken action and destroyed all but one trillions of years in the future.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#53807: Mar 9th 2017 at 4:07:33 AM

Zeno is an immortal so he could have taken who knows how long with his plan.

Goku could have inadvertently given him a good idea on how to actually destroy the universes while also making it both entertaining & productive.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#53808: Mar 9th 2017 at 4:18:05 AM

Zeno wants to destroy Universes because it's too crowded, so even if it happens trillions of years in the future, it would still mean the innocent lives in those Universes are screwed, this time without a Goku who has a small chance of convincing Zeno otherwise. Or he would destroy them for another minor reason. This could be the only chance for them to grow up and become responsible gods, and the threat of universal destruction being permanently resolved.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53809: Mar 9th 2017 at 4:22:43 AM

I doubt anything about Goku's purity fading away is going to come into effect, because this all seems to be more inline with Toriyama's vision of how the characters should be anyway. And, again, none of this is actually his faulting so I can't really get going on about how "he's not acting right" or whatever.

The other universes were going to take their anger out on him (and Universe 7 by extension, probably) anyway.

edited 9th Mar '17 4:24:30 AM by LSBK

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#53810: Mar 9th 2017 at 6:07:54 AM

Universe 7 and 10 were still around in Trunks' future, set many years after the current timeline

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#53811: Mar 9th 2017 at 6:12:25 AM

It seems that the reason so many fans argue whether this is Goku's fault is because the show itself cannot decide whether it's his fault from episode to episode.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#53812: Mar 9th 2017 at 6:46:55 AM

I'm inclined to believe they're leaning towards blaming Goku at this stage if only because the whole "Zen-O was going to do this anyway" was kind of a throwaway line while it being Goku's fault is apparently going to be a running plotline.

This song needs more love.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#53813: Mar 9th 2017 at 7:59:04 AM

To be honest, despite the fact that this is how Toriyama envisioned Goku, I can't help but think this is going way too far. I mean, as someone who's saved the Earth multiple times (even if only because the other dude pissed him off) I'm baffled at his complete inability to understand that everyone else would be so furious with him.

He's way too insensitive about the entire thing. You'd think he'd be able to read the mood. Even he should be able to tell when people are angry.

One Strip! One Strip!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#53814: Mar 9th 2017 at 8:01:54 AM

What does he care if they are angry? He's going to have to fight them either way? It's even better for him if they are angry because it means they will give him a harder fight.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#53815: Mar 9th 2017 at 8:05:34 AM

If everyone gangs up on Universe 7, that lowers its chance of survival.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#53816: Mar 9th 2017 at 8:08:04 AM

When his friends are getting massacred because of that attitude, I hope he cares then.

More to the point, he'd being needlessly uncaring. He could at least try to take some of the heat off his universe. It's a team battle, and he's not the only person with a target on his back, but he's insisting on drawing the ire of every single warrior in the other universes.

Anyway, we'll have to see how things go; some may say he doesn't even need to, but I personally want Goku to redeem himself in some way.

I think I'm just sick of the Crapsack World nature of Dragonball: selfish idiots are the only ones who can save the world; evil runs the show; good is incompetent, and the gods are either worthless or petty shits.

It's too much man. I'm glad I'm mostly here for the fights.

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#53817: Mar 9th 2017 at 8:08:20 AM

I just realized that even if some other Universe Team wins and uses the Super Dragon Balls to revive the other universes, Goku alone has given none of the other teams an incentive to restore Universe 7.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#53818: Mar 9th 2017 at 8:09:32 AM

[up]

Pretty much. He's actually ensured that his whole universe is on the chopping block because he seems incapable of understanding that his actions don't just affect him.

One Strip! One Strip!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#53819: Mar 9th 2017 at 8:10:25 AM

Huh, I just realized something. Flying is disabled if you fall outside of the arena, but no one said anything about teleportation. tongue

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#53820: Mar 9th 2017 at 8:14:26 AM

I'm thinking that Goku will eventually care, but it will be on terms that he understands. Like, someone will make it clear to him that he will never be able to fight all of these strong guys ever again if their universe blows up or something like that.

This song needs more love.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#53821: Mar 9th 2017 at 8:26:05 AM

I just realized that even if some other Universe Team wins and uses the Super Dragon Balls to revive the other universes, Goku alone has given none of the other teams an incentive to restore Universe 7.

I've been thinking that a situation like this might happen, and that the big character payoff of the arc is Goku making his big rival realize that he's not good or evil or complicit shounen-style: through fighting. And then the climactic moment is the rival's universe winning, but them deciding to their wish to save everyone including Universe 7.

edited 9th Mar '17 8:30:27 AM by KnownUnknown

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#53822: Mar 9th 2017 at 8:28:07 AM

Thanks to Super DBH, here's what Jiren sounds like (1:05 in the vid):

The player beats him before could do ANYTHING, though...

edited 9th Mar '17 8:28:44 AM by Rinsankajugin

BigBlackBangBro Time Stranger Since: Sep, 2016
Time Stranger
#53823: Mar 9th 2017 at 8:45:47 AM

[up]Seems like a very seriously guy. Now I wonder what would happen if you put him, Tien, Piccolo, and Hit in a room. I'm sure there would be a lot of talking there...

35 year old white man.
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#53824: Mar 9th 2017 at 9:06:13 AM

I hope Goku realizes that he can't fight strong guys if they're all dead. Even he can't be that stupid...

As of right now, he doesn't even seem to realize (or care) that there are any consequences for losing. Even if none of this is his fault, he could maybe say "that's kind of bad" at least once. That's not asking a lot.

And besides, both Universe 7 and 10 both existed in the future, seems like Zeno was taking his sweet time blowing up universes....

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#53825: Mar 9th 2017 at 9:27:51 AM

As of right now, he doesn't even seem to realize (or care) that there are any consequences for losing. Even if none of this is his fault, he could maybe say "that's kind of bad" at least once. That's not asking a lot.

It's really not is it? The fact that he can't even seem to grasp how bad this is for everyone else is the most frustrating thing.

I gotta ask, for those who've read the original manga from beginning to end, does Goku ever come off as THIS careless, selfish, and clueless.

I mean, it's all there, but I feel like it's way too much now.

One Strip! One Strip!

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