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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53376: Mar 2nd 2017 at 2:29:20 PM

I responded wrong and edited my post. Still, the point stands, from the very beginning current 17 and 18 were better than Future!17 and 18.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#53377: Mar 2nd 2017 at 2:32:33 PM

The point of divergence was Gero opening them early cause the Z-Fighters expected him right?

So in the Future timeline he didn't activate them early & so did something that made them both more evil & weaker right?

edited 2nd Mar '17 2:35:05 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53378: Mar 2nd 2017 at 2:35:45 PM

We don't really know why they weren't as strong, if I'm remembering right. I do remember something about him messing up on one of his attempts to make them easier to control backfired and made them hate everything, but I'm not sure where that's from.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#53379: Mar 2nd 2017 at 2:41:21 PM

At this point I'm more annoyed at the annoyance of canon debates than I am about the canon debates. It's really not hard to grasp which is what.

edited 2nd Mar '17 2:47:47 PM by VeryMelon

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#53380: Mar 2nd 2017 at 2:49:30 PM

Canon was a mistake.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#53381: Mar 2nd 2017 at 2:49:59 PM

I thought the reasons they were stronger in the past is because they never actually fought all out in the future. Trunks never experienced their full strength, so he never knew they were pulling their punches and just toying with him.

One Strip! One Strip!
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#53382: Mar 2nd 2017 at 2:51:39 PM

It's certainly better than the series's explanation of, "I dunno, butterflies, or something".

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#53383: Mar 2nd 2017 at 2:51:53 PM

That's the logical explanation that also fits Future 17's dialogue in the Trunks Special but that's also the wrong one. The Future Androids are stronger than the Alpha Timeline Androids because fuck you, that's why.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#53384: Mar 2nd 2017 at 2:52:35 PM

[up][up][up] Huh wow that actually makes sense.

Nice one. [tup]

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53385: Mar 2nd 2017 at 2:53:47 PM

That never really seemed logical to me, from a storytelling point, anyway. What's the point in putting that line in there if that's the case? The point was made to load more on the "Trunks made things a lot more complicated than he realized" train.

[up][up]I assume you got those mixed up.

[up]It's not the case, though.

edited 2nd Mar '17 2:55:15 PM by LSBK

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#53386: Mar 2nd 2017 at 3:00:11 PM

Weird. I thought it was something confirmed by Saiga.

I'm near sure he said that.

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#53387: Mar 2nd 2017 at 3:01:00 PM

17 said as much in the manga chapter of the future trunks special

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#53388: Mar 2nd 2017 at 3:01:10 PM

[up]x3 No I didn't. in the Trunks Special (the manga one, not the anime), Future 17 tells Gohan before they start fighting for the last time that he and 18 have only ever used about half their power against him. Ergo, it makes sense that our 17 and 18 aren't actually more powerful, it's just that Future Trunks didn't know how powerful they really were since he never fought them at full strength and wasn't there for that line.

Instead, the Future Androids are just stronger for absolutely no reason. Likewise, they're more evil because reasons. Well, because reasons in universe. So many problems with that saga go away once you learn how it was originally supposed to play out.

edited 2nd Mar '17 3:01:27 PM by Zelenal

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53389: Mar 2nd 2017 at 3:02:01 PM

No, other people have said that. I distinctly remember Saiga commenting that one of those guidebooks or Daizenshuu or whatever they're called, reaffirmed that the current 17 and 18 are stronger than the ones from Future!Trunks' timeline.

[up]Except they aren't. Trunks says as much in the manga proper, and a guidebook apparently reaffirms it. One pair is apparently stronger than the other, but you have which one wrong. And, before you comment again, I know what special you're talking about.

edited 2nd Mar '17 3:04:33 PM by LSBK

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#53390: Mar 2nd 2017 at 3:04:16 PM

When did Future Trunks kill them?

Was it after his first trip to the past where he warned Goku?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#53391: Mar 2nd 2017 at 3:07:04 PM

It wouldn't make sense for their present counterparts to be weaker anyway because Trunks warning the heroes of their arrival prompted them to train and end up stronger as a result. Vegeta and Piccolo are far stronger than Trunks or Future Gohan, and neither of them managed to beat the present 17 or 18 despite their training.

edited 2nd Mar '17 3:07:52 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#53392: Mar 2nd 2017 at 3:11:27 PM

I'm fairly sure Trunks does not actually know how strong 17 and 18 are. He's never seen them go all out and he cannot feel their energy, he is not a skilled and experienced enough fighter to gauge it on his own.

If it'd been Goku who said "hey these guys are totes weaker than the ones in our timeline" then we could take his word as gospel because Goku would actually know what he's talking about, Trunks doesn't.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#53393: Mar 2nd 2017 at 3:16:05 PM

Honestly, it would make more sense if the Future Androids were stronger. Maybe since Gero would have been able to study Goku's fight with Freeza and King Cold.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53394: Mar 2nd 2017 at 3:17:56 PM

That really wouldn't make sense. Gero himself wasn't studying these things, he just had spy bugs collecting information for Cell.

The Goku of that time, was likely weaker, or at least the same, as the Goku from the current timeline at that point.

edited 2nd Mar '17 3:20:28 PM by LSBK

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#53395: Mar 2nd 2017 at 3:19:19 PM

That's not really the point. He''s saying that Goku is a better judge of a characters strength than Trunks is.

I mean, even without Ki sensing, he'd probably be able to gauge their power pretty well.

[down]Whoops. I'll just be silent then.

edited 2nd Mar '17 3:24:41 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#53397: Mar 2nd 2017 at 3:21:21 PM

Trunks` word is all we have to go on, so unless you have another way of assessing their strength, Trunks` word is the gospel in this case and him not having battle experience doesn't matter in this case.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#53398: Mar 2nd 2017 at 3:24:56 PM

Like I said, my issue is what's the point of having Trunks say they're stronger, if the answer is "they're not, Trunks just doesn't know how strong they are". That line, along with a bunch of other things were all part of a sequence to establish just how much he had complicated things by time-traveling. It undermines the point if he's wrong.

Even so, I don't get why Future!17 saying "I'm only used half my strength" would make you think the Future!Androids are the stronger ones. Present 17 and 18 fought much stronger opponents than they ever did, and never broke a sweet. It only makes sense to assume they're weaker if you assume that Future!Gohan was equal to either Vegeta or Piccolo, and there's nothing backing that up.

edited 2nd Mar '17 3:28:26 PM by LSBK

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#53399: Mar 2nd 2017 at 3:26:51 PM

[up][up]

I see your point.

I'm still gonna say Trunks' word is as solid as his ability to count.tongue

Disclaimer: I'm totally aware that Trunks' count being off is not even his fault [[Don'tExplain the joke, but I'm just making a joke at his expense.]]

edited 2nd Mar '17 3:26:58 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#53400: Mar 2nd 2017 at 3:47:08 PM

And yea, like LSBK said, Trunks` line about the Androids being weaker in his time than the present ones serves to establish how his meddling in the timeline changed things around and to highlight the differences between what Trunks experienced in his future compared to the present.

Him being wrong doesn't make much sense from a thematic point of view, otherwise what's even the point of making that a point to begin with?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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