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FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#5301: Feb 24th 2014 at 7:50:52 AM

[up](x4)I imagine it comes from:

  • Goku getting pulverized by Broly; Vegeta getting KO'd in seconds.
  • Goku fending off Meta Cooler in his base form initially; Vegeta more-or-less stomped the moment he arrives.
  • Piccolo taking out Cooler's henchmen, then getting one-shotted by Cooler.
  • Goku taking a ridiculous amount of punishment from Super 13, while everybody else is down for the count.
  • Hirudegarn hitting Vegeta with a flamethrower and rendering Vegeta unconscious, after beating the hell out of Gohan and Gotenks.

The "score" gets evened when Goku gets a trouncing of his own in Battle of Gods before anybody else. Then it sort of gets rewound because Goku loses SSG but he's so "in the zone" he fights Bills as a SSJ, despite Gotenks and Vegeta getting trounced.

Few are sitting down to evaluate how impressive or standalone each kill was. They see Goku winning a lot and they get bored with that, and they see other characters getting wiped out and see that as unfair.

edited 24th Feb '14 5:36:28 PM by FOFD

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#5302: Feb 24th 2014 at 7:52:31 AM

well,he also beat Freeza.his dad showing up to heal him isnt exactly a foreseeable course of events. tongue

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#5303: Feb 24th 2014 at 8:19:34 AM

So I just saw that Korin and King Kai will be in J-Star's story mode. I wonder what their roles will be...

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#5305: Feb 24th 2014 at 9:14:10 AM

Korin was talking to Yusuke, so it seems that he scaled up the tower to get to him. I wonder if Yusuke can handle his water.

edited 24th Feb '14 9:14:21 AM by Rinsankajugin

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5306: Feb 24th 2014 at 10:35:23 AM

Goku doesn't beat Buu. He tries to and fails. In the end, everyone beats Buu, and Mister Buu, Mister Satan, Gohan, and Vegeta were all arguably more important than him to destroying Buu.

Vegeta- team effort

Freeza- Trunks

Cell- Gohan

Buu- team effort

But yeah, it probably comes from the movies, where he usually slaughters all the henchmen and fights the main villain. But even then, he defeats less than half of them mostly on his own. Broly, Broly (again), and Bojack are also beaten with no real involvement from him.

edited 24th Feb '14 10:36:08 AM by sockpuppet1

Handsomerob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#5307: Feb 24th 2014 at 10:43:18 AM

Well, with Broly, it took everyone lending Goku their energy to stop him, and with Bojack, Goku was kinda dead, and still got involved to inspire Gohan, so those times are kinda understandable.

edited 24th Feb '14 10:43:45 AM by Handsomerob

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sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5308: Feb 24th 2014 at 10:53:51 AM

I was talking about the OTHER two times Broly was beaten. He was defeated by Gohan/Goten and Goten/Trunks/Mr. Satan.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#5309: Feb 24th 2014 at 10:58:51 AM

It isn't that Goku does everything, but the series does really like playing the, "Stall for time until Goku can get here and resolve the plot!" card a lot. Sometimes consciously on the part of the cast, other times just meta on the part of the audience - the characters aren't deliberately waiting for Goku, but we all know that's what is going to happen. As a result, Goku tends to be a plot resolution on a stick, having few actual appearances in combat, but definitively ending said combat once he gets into it.

  • Raditz - Goku had a legitimate plot tie to Raditz and was thoroughly involved in the story.
  • Nappa - Everyone has to try not to die, with varying results, long enough for Goku to arrive and resolve the plot.
  • Vegeta - Awesome dogpile battle.
  • Zarbon/Dodoria - Gohan and Krillin have to try not to get caught and murdered until Vegeta resolves the plot for them.
  • Ginyu Force - Everyone has to try not to die long enough for Goku to arrive and resolve the plot.
  • Captain Ginyu as Goku - Everyone has to try not to die long enough for Goku as Ginyu to resolve the plot.
  • Frieza - Everyone has to try not to die long enough for Goku to arrive and resolve the plot.
  • Android 19/20 - TWIST! In Soviet Russia, the plot resolves Goku. Fortunately, Vegeta arrives and resolves the plot.
  • Android 16/17/18 - Everyone has to try not to die. Goku never arrives to resolve the plot.
  • Cell - Everyone has to try not to die long enough for Gohan to become a Super Saiyan 2 and resolve the plot.
  • Fat Buu - Goku refuses to resolve the plot. Things get worse.
  • Super Buu - Everyone has to try not to die long enough for Goku to come back to life and resolve the plot, with the twist that things get worse.
  • Kid Buu - Vegeta has to try not to die long enough for Goku and Hercule to resolve the plot.

His characterization doesn't help, given that "Plot resolution on a stick" roughly summarizes his personality as well. He's nice, but dim, doesn't have anything that particularly stands out about his identity other than the basics of being The Hero, and he really likes to eat and fight. He's not a particularly interesting character, which is why he gets a lot more criticism than the rest of the cast.

Vegeta - who also plays the "Show up out of nowhere and resolve the plot" card A LOT - doesn't get nearly as much criticism because he has a more identifiable personality to a lot of fans; he provides as much conflict as he resolves, raises questions as to the nature of evil, is a lot of fun to analyze, and is just plain cool to watch. So he winds up getting a free pass for being a plot resolution on a stick, because it's a really cool stick.

Also because, unlike Goku, we get to see Vegeta have the shit kicked out of him just as much as the opposite, which makes him feel less like a plot resolution on a stick. Once Goku starts fighting, we know the story is in its final phase.

edited 24th Feb '14 11:04:26 AM by TobiasDrake

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sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5310: Feb 24th 2014 at 11:12:29 AM

That's... not exactly accurate. Starting from Ginyu:

No. He doesn't solve the plot, he screws up and Vegeta has to bail everyone out.

Goku doesn't do anything in that battle. It's all Vegeta, Gohan, and Krillin until Goku throws the frog.

The Freeza fight is the only example where it's played straight. Even then, he fails at killing Freeza and Trunks has to do it.

You missed Freeza and Cold. Trunks took care of them. Also, Piccolo also "resolved the plot" for 19 and 20

All the other stuff involves Vegeta and Gohan solving the plot up to Fat Buu.

It's not about not dying against Super Buu. Everyone was waiting for Gohan to solve the plot. No one was waiting for Goku, because he was completely outclassed by this point, and according to Goku himself was too weak to even fight Super Buu. They also had Gotenks on the job, who could have actually beaten Buu. Not just stall.

Huh? It was Vegeta's plan. Satan and Gohan's power. And Mister Buu was the only reason it worked.

Wait, what? Goku does have a personality (selfish, blood thirsty, merciful, dim witted, more savvy than he looks, e.g..), he does get beaten up a lot (more than Vegeta actually), and he fights and loses all the time before the "final phase".

edited 24th Feb '14 11:16:16 AM by sockpuppet1

Handsomerob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#5311: Feb 24th 2014 at 11:33:16 AM

I'm giving him a pass on the Frieza thing:

Trunks basically finished what Goku started.

Considering all the shit that happened to Frieza, I don't blame Goku's inability to not finish the plot: He fucking tried, in mulitple ways, but Frieza just didn't know when to quit.

Plus, he didn't exactly have time to fly down and check if Frieza was dead after he blasted him.

In fact, Trunks kinda kill stole in the end, since Goku was apparently going to just Instant Transmission his butt over there and kick Frieza's ass for good (which I assume he did in the original timeline as well).

Edit: So I just recalled my previous Bojack question and a thought occured to me:

Bojack and his crew were sealed for thousands of years; they might have been rusty, since we have no idea if they could do anything while sealed away like that.

Plus I forgot that they call all theoretically power up to a second state, though Only Bojack and Kogu / Gokua do so.

I wonder if those factors would have any significance if added to my Majin Power-up scenario?

edited 24th Feb '14 11:46:00 AM by Handsomerob

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#5312: Feb 24th 2014 at 11:47:04 AM

No. He doesn't solve the plot, he screws up and Vegeta has to bail everyone out.

Goku doesn't do anything in that battle. It's all Vegeta, Gohan, and Krillin until Goku throws the frog.

How is that not everyone trying not to die until Goku resolves the plot? Vegeta, Gohan, and Krillin fight Ginyu, and then Goku's thrown frog is what beats Ginyu.

The Freeza fight is the only example where it's played straight. Even then, he fails at killing Freeza and Trunks has to do it.

As noted, Trunks finished what Goku started. Goku resolved the plot when he defeated Frieza on Namek. Frieza and Cold on Earth were just a quick action piece to introduce Trunks and kick off the Android Saga.

It's not about not dying against Super Buu. Everyone was waiting for Gohan to solve the plot. No one was waiting for Goku, because he was completely outclassed by this point, and according to Goku himself was too weak to even fight Super Buu. They also had Gotenks on the job, who could have actually beaten Buu. Not just stall.

The audience was waiting for Goku, because we know better. They built up Gohan and Gotenks simultaneously as a threat to Buu, and neither could do it because they aren't Goku. Anyone who's been paying attention to the show's trends at this point knew that fusion was never going to beat Buu unless it was Goku doing it, and Gohan was just going to get Vegeta'dHEY!  until Goku arrived, because that's how this show rolls.

Huh? It was Vegeta's plan. Satan and Gohan's power. And Mister Buu was the only reason it worked.

You're right, I forgot Buu. Vegeta and Fat Buu trying not to die until Goku finishes resolving the plot.

Wait, what? Goku does have a personality (selfish, blood thirsty, merciful, dim witted, more savvy than he looks, e.g..), he does get beaten up a lot (more than Vegeta actually), and he fights and loses all the time before the "final phase".

Goku gets beaten up a lot in the midst of the fight he will ultimately prevail in. There's a difference. He might take a beating in the process, but he still always comes out on top.

Hell, the one fight he legitimately could not prevail in - at least, according to Goku himself - he didn't even get beat up much, he just turned around and quit the field, saying it's Gohan's turn now.

edited 24th Feb '14 11:48:22 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5313: Feb 24th 2014 at 12:00:55 PM

Because everyone had already beaten Ginyu. Goku just made a last minute save. That's like saying Vegeta beat Cell.

I guess, but he still didn't actually beat Freeza.

Wait, what? Gohan had been the protagonist and beat the last Big Bad. Toriyama also declared his intention to make him the new hero, and Goku explicitly left Gohan as his successor after failing to beat the weakest form of Buu. Why would anyone be expecting Goku to do anything against this new Buu?

No. Goku did not resolve that plot. If anyone, Vegeta and Satan did. Goku just sat there charging an attack. He didn't do any actual work or even come up with the idea.

He never camd back to beat Vegeta or Ginyu after receiving particularly brutal beatings. He had to be saved. He helped a little, but again, if you're not counting those for him why count Vegeta's beat downs from Cell and 18? Because he later contributed to their defeats.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#5314: Feb 24th 2014 at 12:28:55 PM

Because everyone had already beaten Ginyu. Goku just made a last minute save. That's like saying Vegeta beat Cell.

Goku's last-minute save was the only thing that defeated Ginyu's Body Change. Ginyu had a very unique attack that made the entire physical fight with him pointless, because he was just going to jump into Vegeta if he was losing. Vegeta beating up Ginyu's body accomplished nothing, and it was only Goku's frog that defeated Ginyu and saved the day.

I guess, but he still didn't actually beat Freeza.

Yes, he did. He thoroughly and completely humiliated and defeated Frieza. He just didn't kill him. He didn't kill Recoome either, Vegeta did, but the fact that Goku was the person who defeated Recoome isn't in question. Ditto Nappa.

Wait, what? Gohan had been the protagonist and beat the last Big Bad. Toriyama also declared his intention to make him the new hero, and Goku explicitly left Gohan as his successor after failing to beat the weakest form of Buu. Why would anyone be expecting Goku to do anything against this new Buu?

Because Gohan defeating Cell was an outlier in a trend. Sure, some people might have genuinely bought that he was going to be the new hero and stay that way forever, but more cynical viewers knew better and were just wondering how many episodes we were going to pretend he might accomplish something before he just wound up going the way of all the other not-Goku characters who try to resolve the plot.

No. Goku did not resolve that plot. If anyone, Vegeta and Satan did. Goku just sat there charging an attack. He didn't do any actual work or even come up with the idea.

It was their idea, yes. It was still his attack that did it, and the final play was specifically using the Dragon to repower Goku so that Goku could give Goku's attack a final push and end Buu. Vegeta came up with it, but his role in the fight was still relegated to fighting Buu and stalling out long enough for Goku's attack to kill Buu.

Functionally, he was doing the same thing Piccolo did on Namek with Frieza, when Goku was charging that Spirit Bomb.

He never camd back to beat Vegeta or Ginyu after receiving particularly brutal beatings. He had to be saved. He helped a little, but again, if you're not counting those for him why count Vegeta's beat downs from Cell and 18? Because he later contributed to their defeats.

As noted above, he was the one that beat Ginyu.

Also, against Vegeta, even broken as he was, Goku was still fighting hard against Vegeta. Yajirobe contributed heavily by cutting off Vegeta's tail, but the things that really crippled Vegeta were Goku blasting him in the eye, Goku's Spirit Bomb thrown by Krillin, and then Oozaru Gohan - in which event, Goku was the one who told Gohan to look at the fake moon, resulting in Gohan turning into the Oozaru. And then Goku was able to aim Gohan's rage and convince him to attack Vegeta. Gohan's Oozaru form was the final attack that defeated Vegeta, and Goku was the one that fired it at him.

Broken and crippled on the ground, Goku still defeated Vegeta. He just happened to have help doing it.

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sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5315: Feb 24th 2014 at 12:42:00 PM

Nope. Beating Ginyu is what actually forced him to use the technique. Again, this is like saying Vegeta beat Cell.

No he didn't. He beat Nappa and Recoome because he neutralized them as threats. Freeza was still a threat until Trunks killed him.

It wasn't an outlier. It was a turning point in the story that had never been seen before. Everyone was explicit about Goku being replaced. No one should have expected Goku to come back, as Gohan had been built up the whole time and beat the last big bad guy. And he WAS originally going to be the hero. Toriyama just changed his mind at the last minute for... some reason.

No, he didn't. Goku just sat there and threw the thing. All of the actual work was done by the others, and they all deserve far more credit than he does. This is like saying Piccolo was solely responsible for beating Raditz.

No he wasn't. Goku's eye blast did nothing. All the damage came from Gohan, Krillin, and Yajirobe. Sure, Goku guided them, but by that logic Vegeta was the one who beat Buu and Kaio was the one who beat Vegeta. He didn't even win this fight, he lost and the others had to come win it.

Handsomerob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#5316: Feb 24th 2014 at 1:04:47 PM

I think this should be an Agree to Disagree scenario, otherwise, you're just going to be arguing in circles.

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#5317: Feb 24th 2014 at 2:25:29 PM

Trunks stole Goku's kill, really. Let's be honest, he was pretty much dead until Cold found him and made him into the Six Million Dollar Alien. And Goku did beat Frieza and Cold in the timeline where Trunks didn't go back.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#5318: Feb 24th 2014 at 3:32:47 PM

Nope. Beating Ginyu is what actually forced him to use the technique. Again, this is like saying Vegeta beat Cell.

But it was still only that technique that mattered. Without the frog, Ginyu would have completely and unambiguously won. Vegeta could pound on Ginyu all he wanted to no avail, because Ginyu would just take Vegeta's body and kill him that way. The only reason the fight didn't end in Ginyu killing everyone is because of Goku's thrown frog.

No he didn't. He beat Nappa and Recoome because he neutralized them as threats. Freeza was still a threat until Trunks killed him.

Frieza was cut in half, then blasted to hell with a massive ki beam at Super Saiyan strength, THEN the planet he was on exploded. By contrast, Nappa's spine was broken, and Recoome was beaten unconscious. He neutralized Frieza a lot harder than either of the two, and the only reason Frieza returned is because his father rebuilt him into a cyborg.

It wasn't an outlier. It was a turning point in the story that had never been seen before. Everyone was explicit about Goku being replaced. No one should have expected Goku to come back, as Gohan had been built up the whole time and beat the last big bad guy. And he WAS originally going to be the hero. Toriyama just changed his mind at the last minute for... some reason.

Doesn't change the fact that it was an outlier. It was all about Goku, then Gohan got to shine one time, and then it went back to being all about Goku. That does not change the trend.

Toriyama can intend whatever he wants, it still went back to being all about Goku.

No, he didn't. Goku just sat there and threw the thing. All of the actual work was done by the others, and they all deserve far more credit than he does. This is like saying Piccolo was solely responsible for beating Raditz.

I never said Goku was solely responsible for beating Buu. I said that the fight, like many, boils down to Vegeta and Fat Buu stalling for time until Goku can resolve the plot. He still needs his punching bags to get their faces punched long enough for him to resolve the plot. That's how Goku nearly always operates: Characters X, Y, and Z try to fight the villain and fail until Goku shows up and wins the day. It wouldn't work without X, Y, and Z.

No he wasn't. Goku's eye blast did nothing. All the damage came from Gohan, Krillin, and Yajirobe. Sure, Goku guided them, but by that logic Vegeta was the one who beat Buu and Kaio was the one who beat Vegeta. He didn't even win this fight, he lost and the others had to come win it.

Goku didn't just guide them. Goku gave Krillin the Spirit Bomb full of energy, and he made Gohan become the Oozaru. The former was still Goku's attack, just launched by a proxy, and the latter was Goku persuading the mindless beast Oozaru to attack who he wanted it to attack - something unprecedented with Goku and Gohan's Oozaru forms, which generally just attack mindlessly until someone blows up the moon or cuts off their tail.

My point isn't that nobody else ever contributes anything: it's that there's a certain formula to Goku. Everyone else fights and fails miserably, then Goku arrives and the final battle begins, and then the villain is defeated. The Cell Saga broke from this formula, but Buu went right back to it.

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Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
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#5319: Feb 24th 2014 at 3:38:23 PM

Second to West Kai. I just finished saying I don't care about the movies for the most part. tongue

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#5320: Feb 24th 2014 at 5:21:22 PM

[up][up] The Buu Arc never went back to whole "Characters X, Y, and Z try to fight the villain and fail until Goku shows up and wins the day" formula, if anything it deconstructed it. Because when Super Buu was beating Gohan to death and Goku arrives to presumably save the day by fusing with Gohan, he only ends up making things worse as Gohan ends up getting absorbed all because Goku doesn't know how to throw a fucking earring.

The Saiyan Arc was the epitome of a free-for-all. The true turning point in the battle with Vegeta was when Yajirobe cut of his tail because if he didn't Goku would have crushed to death by Oozaru Vegeta. The Spirit Bomb really didn't cripple and neither did the blast to eye because Vegeta still had enough in the tank to fight with the serious intention of killing someone. It was when Oozaru Gohan landed on Vegeta that really crippled him to point of where Vegeta basically went Screw This, I'm Outta Here!

As far as the Ginyu Force fiasco, Vegeta, Krillin and Gohan were holding their own until they fought Recoome. And I must stress that the Ginyu Force were Elite Mooks at best, they had much bigger fish to fry with Frieza.

Killing Majin Boo was a team effort. Goku tried on his own to kill Majin Boo but failed. Hell, you could say that technically Mr Satan and Vegeta were the heroes of the Buu Arc because it was Mr Satan who convinced all of humanity to give their energy for Goku's Spirit Bomb and it was Vegeta's idea to use the Spirit Bomb in the first place. And of course Fat Buu provided vital assist and Dende wished for Goku to have enough energy to push the Spirit Bomb back towards Majin Boo and kill him for good.

I still stand by my original belief that Goku has only ever truly saved the day on his own twice; which was against The Red Ribbon Army and Demon King Piccolo. And for the record, both occasions were awesome!

edited 24th Feb '14 5:21:42 PM by FireShadow

nomuru2d Gamer-turning-maker from Port Saint Lucie, FL Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Longing for Dulcinea
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#5321: Feb 24th 2014 at 5:31:16 PM
Thumped: Please see The Rules . This is a warning that this post is the sort of thing that will get you suspended.
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#5322: Feb 24th 2014 at 5:39:25 PM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
nomuru2d Gamer-turning-maker from Port Saint Lucie, FL Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Longing for Dulcinea
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#5323: Feb 24th 2014 at 5:43:30 PM
Thumped: Please see The Rules . This is a warning that this post is the sort of thing that will get you suspended.
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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
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#5324: Feb 24th 2014 at 5:50:01 PM

....Really?

And let me add that I did say we should just let it slide since the argument is going nowhere.

edited 24th Feb '14 5:51:57 PM by HandsomeRob

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Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#5325: Feb 24th 2014 at 6:27:27 PM

Letting this stop? That would be an excellent idea. Do that, please...


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