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Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#5226: Feb 20th 2014 at 7:57:11 PM

Then he am not true super sand?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
nomuru2d Gamer-turning-maker from Port Saint Lucie, FL Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Longing for Dulcinea
Gamer-turning-maker
#5227: Feb 20th 2014 at 8:24:55 PM

FEH! SUPER POOPER SCOOPERS ARE ONLY LEGENDUH!

Long live Cinematech. FC:0259-0435-4987
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5228: Feb 20th 2014 at 8:32:03 PM

[up] "It's true, he really is Super Sand Lesbian! Ahhhhh" (dies)

Anyway, as I posted a short time back, Toriyama considered Beers a 10 to Godku's 6. He fought at 70%, making him about x1.17 stronger than his opponent, and so still had a healthy advantage over Goku; not enough to stomp Goku, but enough to keep him firmly in the lead barring huge differences in their skill levels.

Also according to Toriyama, the power of the SSG depends on the level of both the saiyan being powered up and the contributors to the ritual. So, while we have no concrete way of knowing exactly how strong Vegetto would be with SSG (since Vegeta would be swapped out for the much weaker Tarble), but considering just how big the difference is between base Vegetto and base Goku, he certainly would be able to kill Beers and Whis with a single poke each.

Disregarding whatever subs Saiga saw (as they contradict the events the movie itself...), I'd say that Omega could easily crush the three BOG heavy-hitters with complete and utter ease at the same time. Nothing really to support it, as we have no direct way of comparing them, but it's just a hunch going by how haxxed GT's power scaling is. So SS-4 Gogeta should have no problems.

edited 20th Feb '14 8:35:02 PM by sockpuppet1

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5229: Feb 21st 2014 at 10:35:42 AM

[up] Honestly, I wouldn't even take GT's power level scaling into consideration because it's so inconsistent. Even anime only instances in Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z would create confusion as to who is truly stronger than who. That's why, as much you don't want do admit it, that many people consider the manga the one true canon of the franchise with the Daizenshuu/Chōzenshū guidebooks just filling in any gaps as far as power levels, item list, character designs, family relations and the birthdays of manga only characters.

Even if GT did count, where the FUCK would it fit into the timeline!? Since Dragon Ball Online, which Toriyama himself wrote the story, designed the world and genuinely supervised, outright retcons the events of GT and acts like it never even existed or happened.

I know this will piss you off sockpuppet 1, because you don't believe a canon story exits but as far as I'm concerned the official story of the Dragon Ball franchise is:

Manga —> Dragon Ball Online

I'll end it there before I say something I'll regret and things get out of hand.

edited 21st Feb '14 10:52:39 AM by FireShadow

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5230: Feb 21st 2014 at 11:38:55 AM

Neither BOG nor GT fit in the manga's continuity, so I don't see the problem with trying to classify them together.

Of course. Filler does that all the time. Not all, but some.

I don't really give a shit who considers what to be canon, and I have no problem admitting that there are a lot of people that think that the manga is the one true canon. My problem is that these people are either misinformed or monumentally arrogant, because they assume that the manga being the one true canon is anything other than their own opinion.

Your problem is assuming that GT needs to fit in the timeline around DBO rather than the other way around. Toriyama didn't even write DBO (your link is broken btw); he designed some characters and wrote bits and pieces of the story. It wasn't a total Toriyama project, the lion's share of it was done by other writers, so it again becomes a question of "how involved does Toriyama have to be for it to be part of your canon"? Because he's had at least partial involvement (character designs, general ideas, supervision) with every DB movie and a good chunk of filler. And even if it WAS entirely written by Toriyama, which it's not, it wouldn't mean anything. No one in any official capacity has declared anything as canon, so it'd be up to the individual to decide whether it's "Toriyama continues the Dragon Ball story" or "Toriyama lends a bit of help to a game with an AU story".

Again, I don't really care if that's what you think, if that's your opinion. I would, however, be pissed off if you tried to pretend it was anything other than an opinion. "There is no canon story" isn't just what I think, it's a fact. No one anywhere, not Toriyama nor anyone from Shueisha or even Toei, has declared ANYTHING from DB to be more canon than anything else. I don't even think any official DB-related product has used the word.

For me, both GT and DBO have no place in my personal canon on part of both being complete crap. That's my opinion, my personal canon- the only ones there are for this series- and I don't pretend that it's anything else.

Manga + a few movies and some filler + some guidebooks ——> nothing else after the end.

edited 21st Feb '14 11:41:22 AM by sockpuppet1

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5231: Feb 21st 2014 at 1:05:43 PM

[up] Nothing can be more canon than anything else. It either fits in with the timeline of the manga without any contradictions or it doesn't, which makes it non-canon. There is no grey area like, "Yeah, this is canon but you gotta slightly twist this and kinda ignore that."

What pisses me off is when people say that there is no canon story and you must accept that. If that's the case, then any form of literature that has been adapted into a TV show or movie doesn't have a canon either because there are always contradictions created during any TV or movie adaption of a story based of a novel or comic book, whether it's to remove or change complex elements of the original story without much substantive change to simplify the story or to condense as much material in short space of time and as a result leaving out certain parts of the story. It happens. Does that mean that the author has to come and say "Don't follow the TV show just read what I originally wrote." Of course not! Just read the damn source material!

It would also be a slap in the face to Toriyama's work. It would be like telling Toriyama, "Yeah, Dragon Ball is great and an awesome manga, but nobody has come out to say the manga is canon, so FUCK YOU! It's not the official story and it doesn't count or matter."

edited 21st Feb '14 5:55:33 PM by FireShadow

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#5232: Feb 21st 2014 at 5:59:09 PM

I've come to really appreciate Raditz's character. It only took 19 years of watching this show [lol]

What was said in Bo G was akin to Aizen being only matched by Ichigo. Yes, he was stronger than everyone else that tried fighting him and couldn't be sensed by them. In the movie what they said was: "You need a god-tier powerup to fight him. Just raising your battle power like how you've always done it won't give a high enough yield for you to compete."

edited 21st Feb '14 6:14:52 PM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5233: Feb 22nd 2014 at 12:41:47 AM

[up] Nothing can be more canon than anything else. It either fits in with the timeline of the manga without any contradictions or it doesn't, which makes it non-canon. There is no grey area like, "Yeah, this is canon but you gotta slightly twist this and kinda ignore that."

Continuity and canon do not mean the same thing. And it doesn't even technically have to fit with the continuity of the manga to be canon. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but no one has said what is or isn't canon, no one in any official capacity gives a shit.

What pisses me off is when people say that there is no canon story and you must accept that.

You don't have to accept that, you can have your own canon, but it's an outright fact that no officially defined canon exists for this particular series.

Unless, of course, you're going for canon in the very broad definition of genuine works by the original author. But in that case, the manga is 'canon' and nothing else, including DBO, and most people aren't talking about that definition of canon in conversations like these.

. If that's the case, then any form of literature that has been adapted into a TV show or movie doesn't have a canon either because there are always contradictions created during any TV or movie adaption of a story based of a novel or comic book, whether it's to remove or change complex elements of the original story without much substantive change to simplify the story or to condense as much material in short space of time and as a result leaving out certain parts of the story. It happens. Does that mean that the author has to come and say "Don't follow the TV show just read what I originally wrote." Of course not! Just read the damn source material!

Actually, yes, it does. If there is no official defined canon, then nothing can be canon or non-canon (unless you're just going by the definition of canon which essentially means "source material", but I see others often use the other meaning of "anything that officially took place in the main story" instead). Now, continuity is different. If something can't fit in the same continuity as something else, then it just can't.

But, in Dragon Ball's case, there are a lot of bits from video games, fillers, movies, and even GT that can fit in one overall continuity. A lot of fans have their own personal canons where they pick and choose as they please.

The closest thing that Dragon Ball has to any official canon is the timeline in Daizenshuu 7- and it has GT and multiple movies in it, including two that simply can't fit into the series, so I'm not sure if that's supposed to prove anything.

It would also be a slap in the face to Toriyama's work. It would be like telling Toriyama, "Yeah, Dragon Ball is great and an awesome manga, but nobody has come out to say the manga is canon, so FUCK YOU! It's not the official story and it doesn't count or matter."

"Slap in the face"? I guarantee you, if you were to tell him "I consider some elements of the anime/movies/games etc. to take place in the same continuity as the events of the manga you wrote", he wouldn't give a shit. He doesn't care much about Dragon Ball these days. He did recently write the Jaco manga though, the only DB-related product that can actually be called "written by Akira Toriyama" since the manga ended.

Hell, by including DBO in your canon, you're by your own logic spitting in Toriyama's face. He only wrote bits and pieces of that story. Most of it wasn't by him. Toriyama himself hasn't been the writer of any DB-related thing except the original manga and Jaco. By doing the bits and pieces game, anything can be canon. Toriyama designed almost all of the movie characters, and gave ideas/general concepts for a lot of them. Are the they all canon? Exactly how many man hours does Toriyama have to put in for something to be "canon"?

No one said GT isn't canon. No one said BOG is canon. Especially not Toriyama. No canon for DB exists. And I like it best that way.

edited 22nd Feb '14 12:50:41 AM by sockpuppet1

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5234: Feb 22nd 2014 at 5:42:55 AM

[up] We'll agree to disagree as far as the what can be deemed canon in the Dragon Ball Universe and move on to a different topic... voice actors.

Who is your favorite voice actor and least favorite voice actor in all of Dragon Ball?

My favorite has gotta be Sean Schemmel just because of how much better he's gotten over the years. Every time Goku transforms it's sound so awesome!

My least favorite voice actor, it's no contest... Linda Young. Ugh. Thank GOD they replaced her.

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#5235: Feb 22nd 2014 at 5:51:27 AM

I love Sabat Vegeta. I also love old!18. Ayres Frieza is a godsend, yes. Perfect Cell's voice is... handsome. wink

edited 22nd Feb '14 5:51:38 AM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#5236: Feb 22nd 2014 at 9:55:02 AM

I do like Sean and Chris as Goku and Vegeta, respectively. And part of why Super Buu is my favorite character is because of Justin Cook.

Least favorite is probably Linda Young's Freeza portrayal. She made him sound like a 60-year-old chain-smoking woman.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5237: Feb 22nd 2014 at 11:39:54 AM

English dub-wise, Clark's Perfect Cell and Cook's Super Buu. Really bring more personality to those characters, and its noticeable because the other voice actors usually turned in sub-par performances at this time.

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#5238: Feb 22nd 2014 at 12:40:08 PM

It's funny because Perfect Cell is Clark's first role. Cook is also one of the main reasons Super Buu became my favorite villain a month ago.

Man, Raditz is a lot cooler than I gave him credit for. He's another character that could be used to tell some good stories of old Saiyan culture or what it was like for Nappa and Vegeta under Frieza's reign if the guys in charge ever get their heads out of Bardock's ass.

edited 22nd Feb '14 3:47:03 PM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5239: Feb 22nd 2014 at 6:16:01 PM

Raditz is also voiced by Cook, coincidentally enough. Meaning in the Funimation dub, he voiced the strongest and weakest villains (with names at least). I could never take the guy seriously because oh my fucking god cut your hair man.

And it's more like "mouth off of Bardock's dick". He gets as much dick sucking as Broly these days.

edited 22nd Feb '14 6:16:44 PM by sockpuppet1

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#5240: Feb 22nd 2014 at 6:57:42 PM

[up][up]

Amazing. I didn't realize that Raditz was voiced by the same person who voiced Yusuke Urameshi. Raditz gets way too much flak. Yeah, TFS makes it funny, but still. Raditz beat the crap out of the two strongest characters that existed in the manga up until that point and he was barely even trying.

Yeah, Justin Cook's my favorite as well now, as the voice behind Buu and Raditz. I'm going to have to re-watch Dragonball Z now.

edited 22nd Feb '14 7:02:21 PM by FOFD

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#5241: Feb 22nd 2014 at 7:20:36 PM

Cook is great. He also did Buu Saga Dende I believe. But his crown and glory will always be Yusuke. Similarly, Linda Young IS Genkai, the definite Badass Grandma. I wish people would leave her alone. it's not her fault she was miscast. Voice-actors are only as good as those directing them.

Sabat's best role in anything DB-related has to be King Piccolo.

You know who would have been a good Frieza in Kai though? Robert Moc Collum. He was Sensui in YYH and as you might recall, the personality of Sensui we saw for 90% of his screentime was Faux Affably Evil Magnificent Bastard Minoru. He was fucking perfect and I think he could have done Frieza perfect too.

RedM Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
#5242: Feb 22nd 2014 at 9:07:21 PM

[up]I'm not familiar with the guy you're talking about, but to me, the best Frieza will always be Little Kuriboh, followed extremely closely by the dude in Kai who sounded a lot like Little Kuriboh.

The very best, like no one ever was. Check out my Spider-Man fanfic here! [1]
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#5243: Feb 22nd 2014 at 9:17:59 PM

My mind has combined both Kai and Abridged Frieza's voices. I can't remember how they individually sound.

I wouldn't be surprised if Funimation went for a British!Frieza because they saw how good LK!Frieza was.

[up][up]I don't remember much of Shinobu's voice. I remember it being really subdued though.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#5244: Feb 22nd 2014 at 9:19:30 PM

[up][up][up]

[up]

Robert Moc Collum. He was Sensui in YYH and - He was fucking perfect and I think he could have done Frieza perfect too.

You pretty much had me sold here.

[up]

Sensui had an awful case of split personalities, which didn't fully make sense when one persona had a gun inside its arm, and another didn't, but whatevs. Kazuya, the second personality we meet of the three or four shown, was the most aggressive aka the loudest. Minoru was the quiet, smooth talker. Shinobu was mostly like him.

There's a scene where Sensui is reflecting on his goals while free-falling that I really like. I can't find it on Youtube, but damn was it an introspective scene.

edited 22nd Feb '14 9:43:58 PM by FOFD

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#5245: Feb 22nd 2014 at 9:25:20 PM

Man. Makes me wish I had kept watching Yu Yu Hakusho.

I had been renting some episodes, a few years back, but there were a lot of holes.

Now I want to watch both the Dub and the Sub again.

One Strip! One Strip!
RedM Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
#5246: Feb 22nd 2014 at 9:33:05 PM

[up]How is the dub, by the way? Worth checking out? It looks good from these clips.

The very best, like no one ever was. Check out my Spider-Man fanfic here! [1]
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#5247: Feb 22nd 2014 at 9:38:41 PM

[up]

Dude. I've never enjoyed listening to an anime protagonist more than I have with Yusuke. There was some real thought put into his lines. It's an extra point for my biased, dub-loving self because supposedly a lot of the lines fit better in the dub than in the original Japanese.

In other words, it's a good dub. A little Narm but then what isn't these days. The only real complaint I've heard about it is that it shares too many voice actors with Dragonball Z, as is the case with Raditz and Yusuke.

[down]Your video helped me find the scene I was looking for: Sensui's monologue while free-falling.

edited 22nd Feb '14 9:49:26 PM by FOFD

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
RedM Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
#5249: Feb 22nd 2014 at 9:42:52 PM

Yeah, I'm generally of the opinion that a well-cast, well-acted dub is better than a sub, just because the lines will sound more natural if they're written to be spoken in whatever language you're translating to, rather than giving a more or less direct sub translation. Woolseyism for the win.

The very best, like no one ever was. Check out my Spider-Man fanfic here! [1]
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#5250: Feb 22nd 2014 at 9:43:04 PM

Vegeta was an average scientist.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

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