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Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#50601: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:41:16 PM

Except Gohan and Shin were also being teleported along with Goku and Vegeta, Piccolo wasn't. Again, in the time it would have taken to control Vegeta, send them to the tournament grounds, send them to a desert area, then wait while Gohan and Shin fly back to the ship to face him, Piccolo could easily just kill his ass during all of that.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#50602: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:43:05 PM

Yeah, Piccolo had less distance to travel.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#50603: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:44:37 PM

I though we were talking "in-universe", so to speak. In universe if something gets changed, that causes far reaching consequences when other events inevitably happen. In comic if something changes it isn't a "everyone dies" situation, Toriyama just writes a different solution or a different scenario.

Like we're taking for granted that Goku always had Super Saiyan 3 instead of that being a retcon, so we gotta take it for granted that Supreme Kai could always use Instantaneous Movement.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#50604: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:47:28 PM

[up][up][up] Yeah but the entrance to the ship moved around as well. We aren't entirely clear on the mechanics of Babidi's ship but I think the original entrance would have moved when Babidi teleported it.

[up] I'm not factoring Super into this.

edited 28th Jan '17 5:47:47 PM by Saiga

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#50605: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:49:36 PM

I mean.

Yeah things changed when Future Trunks changed things but.

Two androids still showed up at Amenbo Island or whatever, and Dr. Gero did get destroyed by his creations.

And, like. Apparently Trunks showing up actually prevented Goku from destroying Mecha-Frieza like he did in Trunks's timeline, because Goku was going to do that when Trunks showed up but Trunks made Goku pause to wait and see what was going on. So that's a direct consequence.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#50606: Jan 28th 2017 at 5:50:00 PM

You say that as if Piccolo wouldn't just blast a hole into the ship, then either work his way up or down depending on where Babidi is, or that Piccolo wouldn't just nuke the entire thing once everyone on his side got teleported out of the ship.

Anyway, does anyone remember the opening for Budokai Tenkaichi; it was pretty neat.

edited 28th Jan '17 5:50:24 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#50607: Jan 28th 2017 at 6:02:50 PM

[up][up] Not sure what the point you're making is. I wasn't saying things would be changed randomly, but that the situation is fragile enough that the direction consequences of changing these could mess things up for the heroes.

[up] That opening always made me think they were going to one-up Budokai 3's stage transitions by having the fighters knock each other to entirely different maps.

edited 28th Jan '17 6:03:41 PM by Saiga

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#50608: Jan 28th 2017 at 6:04:30 PM

To move on from this, since it's starting to feel like no one is really going to agree on anything here, the Budokai Tenkaichi 2 opening was...kind of weird with its character usage.

edited 28th Jan '17 6:05:34 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#50609: Jan 28th 2017 at 6:05:52 PM

Oh yeah for sure. Great song though.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#50610: Jan 28th 2017 at 6:08:18 PM

I mean, the Japanese intros just used the openings for the Z anime; 1 got We Gotta Power, and 2 got Cha-La Head Cha-La.

[up][up][up] It honestly always felt to me that that was some weird Instant Transmission dimension or something that Pure Buu and Goku were fighting in.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#50611: Jan 28th 2017 at 6:11:11 PM

Budokai Tenkaichi's opening deserved a better game. Tenkaichi 2's I was with until it decided to put Cell and Baby on Supreme Kai's World. Like... what?

My favorite is still Budokai 3's.

This song needs more love.
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#50612: Jan 28th 2017 at 6:17:24 PM

That one had Super Saiyan Gohan getting beaten up by Metal Cooler...and Super Gogeta needing to be formed against Broly.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#50613: Jan 28th 2017 at 6:23:02 PM

Well, same for Tenkaichi 3. Some Broly wank is unfortunately expecting in video games.

The Gohan vs Cooler one isn't too unreasonable given that the strength of movie villains is rather vague. The placement of that movie could mean all sorts of things, my favorite being that it was Goku and Vegeta who took the first trip and beat Cell, which is why we have Dende as God but Gohan's not a Super Saiyan and Trunks isn't around.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#50614: Jan 28th 2017 at 6:28:36 PM

Now that I think about it, what would the world have been like if Goku and Vegeta had been the first pair to go into the Hemophiliac Ice Rancher?

A full year of being alone with each other could've resulted in Vegeta working out his issues with Goku, and since neither of them would hold back the least bit, they'd likely come out beastly strong. Possibly strong enough to beat Cell. Goku improved immensely even though he lost a lot of time trying to bring Gohan up to speed and he came out early after hitting a plateau. It's not an impossibility that he and Vegeta working together might outright discover a more reliable method to go SSJ 2 than just getting really, really angry.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#50615: Jan 28th 2017 at 6:34:58 PM

Didn't the movie take place before the Super Android 13 movie though?

It's also weird how Xenoverse 2 had Cooler come back to life alongside Frieza during the Resurrection F portion of that game, but as Metal Cooler; like, it seemed to be implying that that was Cooler's Ultimate Evolution, i.e. his version of Golden Frieza, instead of just his "version" of Mecha Frieza.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#50616: Jan 28th 2017 at 6:35:40 PM

Well, both of them discovered Super Saiyan 2 from intense training.

However, even though Gohan originally held Goku back, he would have become a much stronger training partner to Vegeta. It likely took less than two months for Gohan to become a Super Saiyan, because he did that before Goku found Grade II (something that took Vegeta only two months). Gohan was probably better for Goku's growth, but Goku would be better for Vegeta's growth.

Vegeta would almost certainly be stronger than his Cell Games self, but Goku not necessarily so.

[up] It did, but if the movies take place in separate universes you could reason that they didn't need to take place in chronological order.

Also, that's something I really liked about Xenoverse 2 - back before we had it, I drafted my own story for Xenoverse 2, and my first idea was that Cooler would be added to the timeline earlier (alongside Freeza) so that when he died there he would be resurrected in the Resurrection F arc and train for his own 'Ultimate Evolution' form. My game would be heavy on what-ifs, but Xenoverse 2 wasn't, and using Meta Cooler's model as a sort of "Platinum Cooler" is a cool solution for that.

They still use Meta Cooler as the Mecha Freeza counterpart, but treat the one who pops up in Resurrection F as not actually being Meta Cooler but Coolers' own form. And it fits, considering Freeza picked the colours for his form.

edited 28th Jan '17 6:39:06 PM by Saiga

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#50617: Jan 28th 2017 at 7:03:40 PM

Cooler making a 'Platinum' form could've actually been a cool What If? for Xenoverse. They made a game centered on the idea of 'What If?' fights, but then did nothing with it. It's maddening because I can see plain as hell the potential that Xenoverse squandered.

Plus, Freeza training with Cooler would make much more sense to explain their explosive growth rather than Freeza training with some nobody mook.

Anyway, Saiga, I think you're underestimating how much Goku and Vegeta would push each other in those conditions. You're assuming that Gohan took two months to go Super Saiyan... I think the actual process of teaching him how to go Super was probably way less than that, Goku had to get him to the power threshold necessary to actually do it (and we all agree that there has to be a power requirement too, otherwise Gohan would've transformed any number of times before, given his temper problems), which probably took the majority of their time there, and from then on, training as Super Saiyans made them grow insanely quickly.

I'm fairly sure that Vegeta would become a more effective training partner for Goku than Gohan when their power levels became close to equal - they would basically constantly be pushing each other to the limit and getting a much bigger reward out of it because Saiyans.

edited 28th Jan '17 7:06:08 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#50618: Jan 28th 2017 at 7:08:15 PM

There's also the fact that a year of training in there between Vegeta and Trunks didn't exactly end up with their relationship changing much at all. I feel like Vegeta's too stubborn to want to change and get over his issues unless someone dies in front of him. Or if he dies!

edited 28th Jan '17 7:08:40 PM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#50619: Jan 28th 2017 at 7:08:48 PM

I don't understand how Goku plateaued if Gohan was that much stronger than him.

Like. Stronger training partner = better, right? And Goku was weaker than Perfect Cell, was weaker than Super Perfect Cell, was weaker than Gohan.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#50620: Jan 28th 2017 at 7:13:11 PM

[up]x3 I mean, didn't Goku describe the process of becoming a Super Saiyan as a) needing incredible amounts of anger, and b) as being born from a need, not a want?

Also, still weird that even though Metal Cooler was supposed to be his Ultimate Evolution for that part, they still gave him the metallic voice he usually has in that state. And wouldn't he technically be the silver to Frieza's gold?

edited 28th Jan '17 7:13:39 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#50621: Jan 28th 2017 at 7:15:57 PM

Two months maximum is what I'm saying. If Vegeta discovered Grade II in two months, then Goku should be able to do at least that much. Which means Gohan was already a Super Saiyan before then, as he was training as a Super Saiyan when Goku discovered Grade II. And from that, I think he levelled up quickly enough to become a better partner for Goku.

Vegeta and Goku would push each other, sure, but Vegeta isn't ever going to be stronger than Goku so he's not going to be able to push him as hard as Gohan would.

Anyway... I don't see how Xenoverse 2 "squandered" Platinum Cooler. They pretty much delivered exactly that, creating a new model would be better but this is a clever way to substitute for that.

The bigger issue is that Xenoverse 2's story is that it's pretty jumpy and doesn't take time to explain things. Which is quite clearly a case of them being in an awkward position where they don't want to retread everything from Xenoverse 1, so they end up rushing things through instead. I don't like that approach, but I can appreciate how difficult a situation that must have been for them. Starting with the previous hero at the Golden Freeza arc and then moving into original content would have been the ideal, and very unlikely to be something the developers could do under Shuiesha's guidance.

[up][up] Because he's got less dormant power. Look how little he grew in terms of base power over the 7 year timeskip. At the end of the manga, people were starting to hit their limits.

[up] Depends on if he's meant to be second to Freeza or better in that state.tongue

edited 28th Jan '17 7:22:08 PM by Saiga

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#50622: Jan 28th 2017 at 7:17:38 PM

So Goku was a better training partner for Goku? Didn't know he learned the Multi-Form skill.

[up] I mean, didn't Cooler flat-out say that he was weaker than his brother until he discovered his Fifth Form?

edited 28th Jan '17 7:18:41 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#50623: Jan 28th 2017 at 7:22:20 PM

...Wait, who had less dormant power? Goku or Gohan?

Because. I mean, I dunno what Elder Kai did if not dormant power.

Also, I thought the reason Gohan's base power didn't grow over seven years was because he didn't train for shit.

And, like. I don't think Goku really got stronger after Buu until the Super Saiyan God ritual happened.

edited 28th Jan '17 7:23:47 PM by unnoun

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#50624: Jan 28th 2017 at 7:22:53 PM

Yeah, but their Golden/Platinum forms aren't necessarily the same thing. Cooler's might include the power advantage he gained from discovering his extra form.

[up] Goku. He has less dormant power, and his improvements over the timeskip mostly came from gaining new forms.

edited 28th Jan '17 7:23:24 PM by Saiga

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#50625: Jan 28th 2017 at 7:25:02 PM

@Saiga

Two months maximum for learning to transform, but it could've taken longer in total if you account for the time that Goku needed to get him strong enough to transform.

And even though Gohan was stronger than Goku, I don't think he'd have pushed Goku as hard as Vegeta would have - it's just not in Gohan's nature to do that, that's where I think Vegeta might have worked better for Goku.

Of course, I still think they wouldn't have been stronger than Gohan was after he came out of the chamber, mostly because Gohan's got mad hidden potential that they simply don't have.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari

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