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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#50001: Jan 20th 2017 at 1:26:59 PM

Then in the interest of demonstration, I'll talk about some of Chapter 20's content.

  • The manga gave Super Saiyan Rose a flaming aura, which looks wicked cool.
  • Goku and Vegeta knew Black could find them thanks to Mai's ki, so they had Mai hang out alone to distract them while Future Trunks ambushed them with a surprise attack. By the time Future Trunks was defeated, Goku and Vegeta had returned to the past.
  • Future Trunks uses the Solar Flare to escape Black Goku and Future Zamasu, instead of tear gas.
  • There's even a cool shot of Future Trunks stabbing Future Zamasu in the back. It's mainly because he had the element of surprise, but that doesn't diminish it.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#50002: Jan 20th 2017 at 1:31:20 PM

Discussion threads with disagreement are one thing, complaint threads are another, and I understand not wanting to be a part of it.

That's why I checked out of the Naruto thread, the constant whining about how the war arc was terrible and how everything else was retroactively terrible stopped being amusing.

Admittedly, this thread isn't anywhere near as toxic as the Naruto thread is (was?) but I still get finding it off-putting.

edited 20th Jan '17 1:32:04 PM by LSBK

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#50003: Jan 20th 2017 at 1:33:13 PM

I was bottom paged, so I'll repost what I said about Super Chapter 20.

  • The manga gave Super Saiyan Rose a flaming aura, which looks wicked cool.
  • Goku and Vegeta knew Black could find them thanks to Mai's ki, so they had Mai hang out alone to distract them while Future Trunks ambushed them with a surprise attack. By the time Future Trunks was defeated, Goku and Vegeta had returned to the past.
  • Future Trunks uses the Solar Flare to escape Black Goku and Future Zamasu, instead of tear gas.
  • There's even a cool shot of Future Trunks stabbing Future Zamasu in the back. It's mainly because he had the element of surprise, but that doesn't diminish it.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#50004: Jan 20th 2017 at 1:40:14 PM

Thanks Melon, I will gladly talk about the manga.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#50005: Jan 20th 2017 at 1:47:07 PM

One thing I liked about chapter 20 is Zamasu actually using his Kaioshin powers. In the anime I've seen him described as more of a meat shield for Black Goku then anything else. Speaking of, even Black Goku uses his kaioshin powers against Vegeta in their second fight. I like that Goku Black didn't lose his original powers just because he's in a Saiyan body now. And it looks like Black's zenkai is really potent. After getting healed by Future Zamasu, Goku Black really did become stronger than SSB Vegeta even before he later got Rose.

Future Zamasu also has all the Time Rings now, but I'm not sure if he has 2 white rings yet.

edited 20th Jan '17 1:47:16 PM by VeryMelon

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#50006: Jan 20th 2017 at 1:49:32 PM

Also, they plan on killing humans in every timeline; not just Trunks`

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#50007: Jan 20th 2017 at 1:52:38 PM

That would explain needing all the Time Rings, and it gives Goku and Vegeta more personal stakes in the Saga. Man, I wonder how this would play out n Xenoverse 3.

TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#50008: Jan 20th 2017 at 1:56:45 PM

I don't know if they could do the Goku Black saga the same way as most others since Zamasu and by extension Black have God Ki, which isn't affected by the Villainous/Time Breaker Aura.

So they'd have to suddenly say the next villain CAN affect God Ki, but by then the story just is over because they can take over Beerus/Champa/Whis/Vados/etc and gg Time Nest.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#50009: Jan 20th 2017 at 1:59:28 PM

Xenoverse 2 ended with Towa and Mira both dead, so they'll have to find something other than the Time Breakers to make a plot.

I think it would be best if Xenoverse 3 is just the Dragon Ball version of Time Squad.

edited 20th Jan '17 2:00:02 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#50010: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:06:54 PM

They could always just use Towa/Dabura's father that they introduced in Heroes...Maybe.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#50011: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:07:43 PM

It's not like being dead has ever stopped villains from coming back before.

edited 20th Jan '17 2:07:56 PM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#50012: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:08:53 PM

Grandfather. And yeah he's the next pick for a Time Breaker villain, but I was think you wouldn't need one to influence Zamasu. Just have him do his thing in Xenoverse 3 somewhere.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#50013: Jan 20th 2017 at 2:46:46 PM

Here's most of Chapter 20's translations: https://twitter.com/DragonBallRedux/with_replies

First portion is obvious from the pictures. Both past and present scenes are discussing the info on there being two Zamasu. Have seen speculation that Black isn't the Zamasu from the main timeline in the manga, but they re-confirm he is. You know, before Beerus split the timeline again, anyway. Zamasu wasn't around to observe Black because he was investigating the other Parallel Worlds for their eventual invasion & Zero Humans Plan. Zamasu doesnt see any trouble in taking them over, but is shocked to see a 6th Time Ring (Beerus' split) when putting away the one he used.

Black learns Goku and Vegeta came from the past. He and Vegeta have a sassy bitch fight, arguing over who will or won't die, and when Black says he thought all of Goku's power would be his the moment they swapped bodies, but that wasn't the case (obviously). It wasn't just SSGSS/Blue, he couldn't even transform into a normal Super Saiyan at the start. Possibly explaining why he didn't attack SS 2 Trunks when he arrived in that Parallel World at the Bobbidi/Dabra fight?

Anyway, Black learned about the near death boosts and, teaming up with his alternate self, used those to climb back up the power ladder. East Kaioshin suggests that this was his real motive for switching timelines. I suppose Beerus, being friends with Goku in that world, wouldn't have liked Goku's body being stolen, and Black was basically powerless. Black says every time Zamasu heals him from near death, the damaged cells become "mine", allowing "god's" mind & body to connect better.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#50015: Jan 20th 2017 at 3:22:49 PM

Sure there is aversion to change here. Even if the series started to change in fucking 2008.

Oh please. It's not an aversion to change. It's an aversion to a specific plot point on the grounds that that point is stupid.

Giving Potara the same limitations as Fusion Dance was incredibly lazy and about the worst way they could go about it. Sometimes an explanation is worse than being vague.

They didn't need to revisit Vegetto. He was a plot device, he was written out quickly enough, move on from him. Instead, the time limit given has actually made him more exploitable now that they can fuse without long-term consequence (establishing the DBs as able to split them also did this, but this makes it even more convenient). And it's just taken away something that made Potara distinct from the Fusion Dance, while not making sense

@Pushover You can arrogantly call it "shallow" but I think most would see your interpretation as shaky at best. There are so many elements that would be contradictory to any kind of consistent message, and I don't believe one was intended because Dragon Ball has never been big on deliberate themes or aesops.

But let's break it down. The mortals originally impress a God with their power, but they're really more powerful when using Godly power. They still fail, so use another Godly method to become powerful. Then they fail because they're mortals who are worse at using that power. Then the God who stole the mortal body for its power uses a Godly method to become even more powerful, and then... begins losing power because the mortal side of him is holding him back. And then Trunks does his dumb Spirit Sword thing and fails to actually defeat Zamasu, completely ruining the timeline and requiring a God to come in and destroy everything. And then another God tells Trunks how to fix his shitty situation.

The most consistent element to the arc is mortal elements fucking everything up, and Godly elements being the best solution to things, especially wielded by pure Gods. I highly doubt that was an intended message.

I'm assuming your villain was either immortal or had regeneration powers, because when you have the bag of senzu, why would you ever burn them?

Hah! Dunno what I was thinking when I typed that out, that's not how I planned it. It was the heroes that destroyed the senzu, after managing to briefly get them back but not having a way to keep them from being taken again.

The villain was using them as free heals, yeah. It was my way of having a non-regenerating villain that could still run a gauntlet of fights without a) being worn down before the final fight or b) needing to be so strong as to tear through all the fights without being worn down

I didn't know you'd had any ideas for Fanfiction. What made you give up on it?

I wouldn't say I'd given up on it, mostly just put it on the backburner. A big reason for that is that I think Dragon Ball suits a comic much better than prose. So I can visualize the comic in the head, and the prose just doesn't fit as well.

But there are also other reasons - I've got lots of fanfiction ideas I brainstorm out, I'm just not big on fanfiction to begin with - it mostly feels really self-serving, which is why I keep the actual stores to myself. I'm happy talking about ideas when they're relevant though. Then there's the really poor time management between my various hobbies, or the fact that lately I've felt quite burnt out on Dragon Ball because I'm not a fan of the new content that's getting most of the attention.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#50016: Jan 20th 2017 at 3:28:52 PM

I wouldn't say I'd given up on it, mostly just put it on the backburner. A big reason for that is that I think Dragon Ball suits a comic much better than prose. So I can visualize the comic in the head, and the prose just doesn't fit as well. But there are also other reasons - I've got lots of fanfiction ideas I brainstorm out, I'm just not big on fanfiction to begin with - it mostly feels really self-serving, which is why I keep the actual stores to myself. I'm happy talking about ideas when they're relevant though. Then there's the really poor time management between my various hobbies, or the fact that lately I've felt quite burnt out on Dragon Ball because I'm not a fan of the new content that's getting most of the attention.

Ok. That makes sense. I mean, I considered Dragonball fan fiction as something to try myself, but the problem is that Dragonball doesn't really lend itself to alternate scenarios.

I mean, most attempts to brainstorm what if this happened this way instead of the way it did in canon end with and then Raditz / Vegeta / Frieza / Buu show up and kill everyone.

The best I was finally able to come up with is ''what if Frieza never existed, because without him moving in the background, a lot of the things that happened in the series would never have happened at all.

One Strip! One Strip!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#50017: Jan 20th 2017 at 3:31:32 PM

Rob, just because it will end in tragedy as a Foregone Conclusion, it doesn't mean there can't be an interesting journey on the way to the end.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#50018: Jan 20th 2017 at 3:34:11 PM

Yeah, the point of the arc was "Mortals using Godly means of power vs a God with a mortal handicap" Zeno only needed to show up to wrap things up after the climax as the falling action.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#50019: Jan 20th 2017 at 3:37:17 PM

... No, if anything, the most obvious theme of the arc is 'Gods Rule, Mortals Drool', because everything the mortals do fails or makes the situation worse and only the gods manage to make any positive progress.

Of course, that's not the intended theme.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#50020: Jan 20th 2017 at 3:42:00 PM

I doubt there was an intended theme.

I mean, the fact that it ended with everything Trunks did meaning absolutely nothing is bad enough. The idea that that is the lesson we learn from this...

No. I assume (if it turns out that the manga will do the same thing) that it was just Toriyama and his usual Subvert Expectations method.

We all thought that, despite how bad things got, Zamasu would somehow be defeated and Trunks would finally be able to live in peace. Instead, Zamasu more or less wins (even if it cost him everything), and everything Trunks did (even asspulling two new abilities) failed.

Is that really a lesson you want to teach? Sometimes you just fail and everyone you love dies? That even when you've done everything to fairly earn a happy ending, life will just LOL! NOPE! you in the end?

...Ok, I suppose it's kinda applicable to real life, but still. No. Shame on you Toei! Shame on everyone who was involved in that ending.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#50021: Jan 20th 2017 at 3:42:16 PM

[up][up][up] That's not really a point, that's just a description of what happens. And it's also not very accurate, because Trunks beating Zamasu didn't do anything positive.

[up]x5 Oh, I'm not super fond of what-if fanfiction. But I'd come up with a lot of those concepts as part of my ideal video game story mode, where you'd have a lot of branching paths to do things slightly differently (and it wouldn't just operate on For Want Of A Nail, because it'd be bringing in movie and GT characters). It's pretty easy to come up with what-if scenarios as long as you think about how you can achieve the same result through a different method. And some of the storylines leading to bad endings would be fitting for the multi-branch video game story.

edited 20th Jan '17 3:42:29 PM by Saiga

TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#50022: Jan 20th 2017 at 4:03:38 PM

I just made it simple and killed off the Dragon Ball universe entirely in my fic. cool

...Along with Kingdom Hearts...And by extension all of Disney...And all the Final Fantasies...I might have all taken out Marvel and DC in the process somewhere along the lines.

...Don't give me intellectual properties to work with is what I'm saying, there's at least a 90% chance one of them will get destroyed.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#50023: Jan 20th 2017 at 4:04:58 PM

That's because of that OP villain you made though, Mr. "Artifact that can Kill the Living Tribunal".

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#50024: Jan 20th 2017 at 4:10:41 PM

That's not really a point, that's just a description of what happens. And it's also not very accurate, because Trunks beating Zamasu didn't do anything positive.

I don't think it's worth bothering to challenge his narrative. The separation he made between Zeno winning and the "intended" idea/aesop/point about mortals shows that.

TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#50025: Jan 20th 2017 at 4:10:45 PM

Hey hey hey hey hey. HEY.

...There's a TOTALLY logical story behind all of that...eeeeeventualllllyyyyy


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