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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#49901: Jan 19th 2017 at 3:18:13 AM

Yeah, Toyotaro's style is certainly close to Toriyama's, but there's something off about it, like the proportions are maybe a tiny bit too cartoony and exaggerated.

Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#49902: Jan 19th 2017 at 3:18:21 AM

I don't think it was ever stated in the show or manga.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#49903: Jan 19th 2017 at 4:06:05 AM

Here's a comparison image that may show what I mean.

Toriyama has a very distinctive style, and a very specific way he draws each of his characters, but he was willing to play around with it. Sometimes his characters would look much more cartoony, sometimes they would look much less cartoony. Toyotaro, on the other hand, looks like he's drawing all the characters with a reference sheet on-hand and focusing really hard on making them look perfect, which makes them look on-model, but also tends to make them look rather bland and uninteresting. He's not creative or expressive enough through his art to perfectly emulate Toriyama's style. The difference between the two is also strikingly apparent in their linework. Toriyama's linework almost sometimes blends into his shading, and the thickness varies even within the same line, with tiny breaks where the line is thinnest to give an impression of blending colors and textures. To contrast, any breaks in Toyotaro's linework are very deliberate, intentional, and rigidly consistent, and his lines only seem to have two thicknesses, which don't blend into each other on the same lines.

edited 19th Jan '17 4:06:44 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49904: Jan 19th 2017 at 4:18:07 AM

Shlugo's right. It's explained in the manga, starting with 16 Gero made his creations successively weaker until he got one he could control (19).

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49905: Jan 19th 2017 at 4:44:56 AM

Yeah, I get that, but I always assumed that 17 and 18 were made at the same time with the same process.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49906: Jan 19th 2017 at 4:57:14 AM

They weren't exactly. We see that he had some some work on them concurrently, but the Android ABCs from the manga mention he already knew he couldn't control 17 before he created 18's power and adjusted based on that.

17 was first, there was some overlap between the two production periods though. Leading him to complete both, and then be testing on them at the same time.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49907: Jan 19th 2017 at 5:06:52 AM

Still, it does have a lot of Unfortunate Implications.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49908: Jan 19th 2017 at 5:19:59 AM

Eh. It's made pretty clear that their power stems entirely from Dr Gero's choices, so this is one case where I'm not really seeing it.

I think from a meta point of view, I think the only reason 17 was stronger was because of where both were placed in the plot. 18 was Vegeta's opponent, 17 was Piccolo's, and that feels more fitting than switching the match-ups. 17 was stronger because he fought second, against the more powerful Piccolo. But 18 gets the better showing and more memorable fight, because she established the Androids' strength by defeating Vegeta. 17 just matches Piccolo until Cell shows up.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49909: Jan 19th 2017 at 5:33:14 AM

That's true. 18 does get a significantly better showing and she gets to beat up Vegeta, that's always fun.

But the Unfortunate Implications are there. Now, I'm not gonna go SJW on you and start screaming about how offended I am about it, because ultimately it's not a big deal and there is a workable in-story justification, but you can bet that there are people out there who would lose their shit over it.

I guarantee you that someone out there will get offended that the female android is the weaker one.

edited 19th Jan '17 5:33:38 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49910: Jan 19th 2017 at 5:38:50 AM

yeah but you could say that about ANYTHING

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49911: Jan 19th 2017 at 5:50:49 AM

Yeah, but at least most people will ignore most Unfortunate Implications problems.

I've seen some pretty hilarious shitstorms result from the slightest, most unintentional, implications of sexism. It can be gloriously hilarious.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#49912: Jan 19th 2017 at 6:08:41 AM

Pushover is right, Toyotaro 18 is definitely different from how I remember her.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#49913: Jan 19th 2017 at 6:19:15 AM

We've passed the manga's publication dates (1984-1995), Z's (1986-1996), and now we're up to GT's end date (1997).

    manga leak 
Zamasu has another added ability in the manga: He can teleport items

...isn't every Kaioshin able to do that by default? Again I was kind of surprised Zamasu didn't abuse his teleport/magic materialization in the anime.

He then proceeds to stomp SSB Vegeta in regular SSJ, then turns Rose just to rub it in and stomps both heroes

I just did a google search to check the thing about Zamasu having a new ability and this came up. It sounds like Manga Black is more OP.

This also contradicts any headcanon of his personality being "infected" by Goku - Goku wouldn't just take the beating for the hell of it. Headcanon aside, I can't see Black letting himself get beaten for the hell of it - Zamasu is too arrogant to let mortals beating him up slide.

Trunks doesn't get a powerup, he distracts Black and uses the beatdown as a distraction so Goku can use the time machine to escape. Vegeta is still unconscious. * Trunks uses a Taiyoken/Solar Flare to escape Zamasu and Black

Trunks taking a beating to distract Zamasu/Black just sounds hilarious, and the Solar Flare is a more logical escape tactic that doesn't rely on Zamasu and Black to absolutely suck as villains. But when did Trunks learn the Solar Flare? Is he a Super Saiyan 2 in the manga?

He steals Goku's senzu and burns them.

Well that's just evil. And smart. And evil.

Vegeta is confused why he doesn't power up after eating a senzu

And I'm equally confused. Is this him "reaching his mortal limit?" Or are they just cutting Vegeta down more by barring him any further power-up?

[up] ...Toyotaro is a woma...and I clicked the link and that's not what you were saying at all. A picture of Toyotaro's version of 18 compared to Toriyama's would've been helpful.

edited 19th Jan '17 6:29:00 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49914: Jan 19th 2017 at 6:21:54 AM

The real mystery is why Vegeta's surprised he didn't get a power-up from eating a senzu when he never got any from eating senzu in the Android or Boo arcs.

He steals Goku's senzu and burns them.

Heh, that was an idea I had for a fanfic villain of mine. Using magic to "summon" the senzu bag and destroying them.

edit: also, [up] materializing objects and teleporting them are separate things. Kaioshin's never shown the ability to just go "all your object are belong to me" before.

edited 19th Jan '17 6:22:46 AM by Saiga

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#49915: Jan 19th 2017 at 6:27:21 AM

Welp, we may get Vegetto in the manga as well. Nice.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#49916: Jan 19th 2017 at 6:28:17 AM

I misread that.

Zamasu has another added ability in the manga: He can teleport items. He steals Goku's senzu and burns them.

So Zamasu can basically Skyrim-Pickpocket anything he wants? That sounds ridiculously broken. There is absolutely no way Zamasu should be able to lose if he plans ahead and pays attention, unless there's a size limitation on his power.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#49917: Jan 19th 2017 at 6:29:17 AM

He is weaker than the rest of the combatants, and also arrogant as hell.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#49918: Jan 19th 2017 at 6:41:05 AM

-lifts nose 100 percent condescendingly-

The real mystery is why Vegeta's surprised he didn't get a power-up from eating a senzu when he never got any from eating senzu in the Android or Boo arcs

So now, if Toyotaro's version is the "truer" version, and we have Vegeta here thinking he was supposed to get a power-up from eating a Senzu, then it seems apparent that Zenkais didn't stop being a thing just because we stopped hearing about them, because that's what Toyotaro probably wrote based off of Toriyama's notes, meaning at least one of them believes Goku and Vegeta do continue to get stronger from near-death scenarios, if not as much or as noticeably.

Bham.

[up] Granted the manga's different, but Zamasu seemed to be hanging around with Goku and Vegeta. He couldn't overwhelm them but he could still hurt them. Even ignoring that, we have to assume that there's an imposed limitation on Zamasu's ability because if not, then why not teleport Goku's lungs/heart to Saturn - assuming Zamasu and Black didn't blow it up - in which event Zamasu wins.

Fatality. Flawless victory.

edited 19th Jan '17 7:30:39 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#49920: Jan 19th 2017 at 6:59:58 AM

Kindly reminder that Trunks warned the characters about 19 and 20, yet when he came back, he didn't recognice 19, and the issue were 17 and 18.

So yeah, the franchise is that way, no matter how strong forum headcanons got in the 2000's.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#49921: Jan 19th 2017 at 7:02:26 AM

IMPOSSIBRU. Toyotaro can do no wrong.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#49923: Jan 19th 2017 at 7:27:30 AM

[up] (4) Toyotaro can do n-

[nja] Ah damn it.

edited 19th Jan '17 7:28:42 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49924: Jan 19th 2017 at 8:21:55 AM

@Saiga

I'm assuming your villain was either immortal or had regeneration powers, because when you have the bag of senzu, why would you ever burn them?

That's a free Megalixir right there. Or multiple Elixirs.

edited 19th Jan '17 8:22:11 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#49925: Jan 19th 2017 at 8:22:29 AM

Unpopular opinion time: Toyotaro is a hack that only got the job because he wrote a mediocre doujin that achieved a memetic status among the fanbase, and his version of Super is vastly inferior to anime.


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