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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#49826: Jan 16th 2017 at 7:57:43 PM

I mean, even if Gohan in his base form was a hundred time stronger than Super Ultra Mega Perfect Golden God Oozaru Cell (Baby, Majin, Villainous, Kaioken Times 2 trillion), the fact is that Cell kinda wanted to destroy the planet? So. Maybe don't give him the senzu?

edited 16th Jan '17 8:01:01 PM by unnoun

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#49827: Jan 16th 2017 at 8:02:02 PM

You also need to take into account Gohan's mindset and the interference of Vegeta. Gohan lost his confidence and he needed a little prodding from Goku to fight harder. Also, wasn't Cell going easy on Gohan?

"Mai waifu."
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#49828: Jan 16th 2017 at 9:05:21 PM

Unnoun you newb! It's clearly stated, on panel, during the Freezer fight that the maximum Kaioken is X20.

Anyway, this Gohan as Saiyaman and Super Cop Krillen stuff is way more entertaining than redoing the two movies. You, on this very thread, you said it couldn't be done! But this is what "Super" should have been doing from the beginning! But TOEI has finally come to their senses, or more likely, were forced to be creative after running out of material to rehash and actually came up with good ideas. I knew they could do better.

The Baseball Episode proves that memes are ascending into the work itself, if the inmates aren't already Running the Asylum, but at least the characters treat Yamucha with the expected degree of respect.

And that Hit episode, that's how Vegeta was in the Buu saga, and I like it, as well as Hit leaping through time or space in further contrast to instant transmission. To think I once suspected the Super Anime would turn out worse than GT.

Buldogue's lawyer
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#49829: Jan 16th 2017 at 9:19:27 PM

GT still has the minor advantage in that Dan Dan Kokoro is actually a good song.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#49830: Jan 16th 2017 at 9:37:08 PM

Times 20 is the most Goku did.

King Kai couldn't do Kaioken at all, and told Goku not to multiply it over x2. Goku didn't listen because he's Goku.

There's nothing said about times 20 being the highest possible for anyone ever.

Doubt many people could get over 20 because of how tough it is.

Feel like Cell could though. Frieza's durable and Piccolo can heal.

edited 16th Jan '17 9:44:10 PM by unnoun

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#49831: Jan 16th 2017 at 9:47:11 PM

No, King Kai couldn't master the Kaioken. I find it really confusing people think he invented the technique while simultaneously not being able to use it.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#49832: Jan 16th 2017 at 10:24:49 PM

Well, not being able to master the technique you created (and should know the most about) is a little weird.

Though not impossible I suppose. Maybe by the time he finished it, he was too old (by Kai standards) to fully master it, hence teaching it to Goku so he could do it (beyond that whole invading asshole Saiyans thing).

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#49833: Jan 16th 2017 at 11:02:50 PM

Yeah, Kaio definitely could use the Kaio-Ken, Goku just mastered it to a level beyond what he could.

On the umpteenth installment of the 'SS1 Gohan vs Super Perfect Cell' conversation last page: Gohan's rage boosts have never been his full power, unleashed through any mental blocks he has, they have always been him tapping into the vast well of hidden potential within his body, raising his Power Level beyond what he's normally capable of at that point. Besides, IANCE, your entire argument, every time, hinges on one thing: that Super Saiyan 2 being a 2x multiplier is relevant and true to the manga at that point in time.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#49834: Jan 16th 2017 at 11:06:06 PM

Is there any reason to assume that it wasn't? Even if Toriyama didn't come up with that detail until later, it doesn't make it any less of a fact.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#49835: Jan 17th 2017 at 1:05:11 AM

Because if that were true...wouldn't SSJ Gohan just outright beat Perfect Cell? With no effort at all?

Assuming the logic of him being half of SSJ 2 is true...he somehow managed to defeat an even stronger form of Cell at the level of SSJ. And with that train of thought, he should've had no problem with him when he was in a weaker form. If the power gap was really that wide....

edited 17th Jan '17 1:07:49 AM by hardcorefakes

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49836: Jan 17th 2017 at 1:06:50 AM

well maybe if he wasn't being a lil bitch

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49837: Jan 17th 2017 at 2:10:44 AM

[up][up]See [up]

Gohan didn't beat Perfect Cell as SSJ not because he was unable to, but because he was unwilling to just let go of himself and fight.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#49838: Jan 17th 2017 at 2:13:15 AM

If that were the case, then there'd be no narrative point to him transforming to SSJ 2 in the first place.

If Toriyama came out and gave that exact multiplier later on, then it's an example of a Word of God Retcon that clearly wasn't intended at first. And it just goes to show why in the plot itself he rarely outright quantifies power levels any more.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49839: Jan 17th 2017 at 2:22:47 AM

Well, while I disagree that Gohan was more than twice as powerful as Super Perfect Cell, that's just incorrect. Toriyama was writing by the seat of his pants and already established Gohan as stronger than the form of Cell he went Super Saiyan 2 against. Cell didn't reveal his full power until after Gohan had transformed and rendered it pointless.

Now there is the fact that Cell used more effort fighting Gohan than he did Goku, but aside from using his true speed he didn't appear to power up, making him weaker than Gohan. And yet, Gohan still had to transform, because it was the point where he stopped sandbagging. Unless you assume Toriyama retconned it once the fight started so that only Gohan's hidden power was stronger than Cell.

Writing week to week, either are fully possible. Saying there is no narrative reason for it happening isn't a factor when Toriyama could be shifting gears on a weekly basis.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49840: Jan 17th 2017 at 2:23:12 AM

[up][up]Retcon means retroactive, though.

[up]I don't think Gohan had to transform to beat Perfect Cell.

edited 17th Jan '17 2:27:23 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#49841: Jan 17th 2017 at 2:26:44 AM

[up][up] If it's established that Gohan, as he is, is powerful enough to accomplish what he wants to do without transforming, then the big climax of him transforming is still narratively weak regardless.

There really isn't any narrative advantage to him getting a power boost when he already has the power to do what he wants to do, over simply having him stay as he is but dig deep and pull that power out, because ultimately he doesn't actually need to. Especially when the issue is restraint, as it was with Gohan at the time. The transformation does add the narrative caveat of his personality alterations, however, so there's still relevance there as getting complete control over oneself as SSJ was an earlier plot point.

When Cell gets a powerup later that is more powerful than Gohan's max was at SSJ, that's superfluous (at least in regards to this specific situation), as it's beyond the point where it matters.

edited 17th Jan '17 2:36:52 AM by KnownUnknown

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49842: Jan 17th 2017 at 2:30:49 AM

Hell, at the time, SSJ 2 wasn't even a thing yet.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#49843: Jan 17th 2017 at 2:32:35 AM

You could make the argument that SSJ2 wasn't even in Toriyama's mind when we made that fight. Looking through it and the dialogue, nothing outright calls it a new transformation or anything like that. The closest is Cell saying that Gohan has changed and that this is his true form which could be taken a number of different ways.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49844: Jan 17th 2017 at 2:46:20 AM

[up][up][up] Well, that's what is already presented unless you start making extra assumptions like an additional power-up on Cells part or Toriyama retconning Gohan to be weaker.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#49845: Jan 17th 2017 at 10:44:32 AM

To be fair, though he doesn't do it often it wouldn't be the last time Toriyama threw in a transformation for tension's sake that had narrative weaknesses on its own. That was later a problem evident with Super Saiyan 3.

edited 17th Jan '17 10:53:07 AM by KnownUnknown

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#49846: Jan 17th 2017 at 11:15:56 AM

It's a shame SS 2 followed SS 3's "Stamina draining" steps.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#49847: Jan 17th 2017 at 11:52:51 AM

The massive stamina drain is getting a bit ridiculous.

I mean given enough time and training, you should be able to offset any time of stamina drain right?

I feel like some of the techniques have too many flaws, and not enough ways to work around them.

One Strip! One Strip!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49848: Jan 17th 2017 at 1:17:36 PM

... No, sometimes, it doesn't matter how much you train to endure it, some things are just too draining.

Presumably, mastering SSJ 3 to that degree would've taken way more time than what Goku had between Buu and Beerus.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#49849: Jan 17th 2017 at 1:26:50 PM

Should've went for a 200x form as well.It's like Goku kept powering up till his eyebrows vanished.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#49850: Jan 17th 2017 at 1:28:25 PM

I dunno, post Buu saga it didn't look like Goku has much problem with SSJ 3.


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