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Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#49651: Jan 13th 2017 at 8:03:13 PM

I mean, did Zarbon become more than two times stronger when he transformed? The only real mutant he had to go with who could transform was Zarbon, and he didn't get that much of a boost when he transformed, nor did he have multiple transformations as well.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#49652: Jan 13th 2017 at 8:10:50 PM

Vegeta has been doing things that HAVE KILLED him several times over forever.

I did some repair work on that sentence for you.tongue

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49653: Jan 13th 2017 at 8:16:38 PM

You are definitely overestimating Vegeta's dumbness IANCE. He had just overcome the transformed Zarbon while weaker than him, through goading him into transforming and immediately working to blindside and weaken Zarbon.

It's just that Freeza's transformation was on a way greater scale of power than Zarbon's. He could not know that proportionally, Freeza's transformation was a much bigger increase.

For the Galick Gun, he was very obviously goading Goku into taking the attack head-on. He says as much. It's not going "fuck this" Im Taking You With Me or forgetting he can't breathe in space, because none of that matches up with him specifically noting that Goku should take the attack head on to save the planet. He was either sure Goku would take the hit, or desperate enough to gamble on it.

You're probably still right that it would destroy Earth. If Goku didn't believe he were capable of destroying Earth, he wouldn't have necessarily taken the bait like he did. Both characters seem to believe it will destroy Earth.

Not really, I mean, at least Super!Goku wasn't being overly friendly with Frieza like he was in the movie, even though he had already given Frieza like 3 second chances at this point, and had already resolved to kill him as far back as the Mecha Frieza thing, if Trunks hadn't gotten involved.

These are minor issues in light of the flaws that both versions have and Super introduced. Super's versions has minor improvements, keeps the worst parts intact, and adds a bunch of extra flaws by padding things out and somehow handling the characters even more poorly.

It is very unlikely we'll come to any sort of agreement on this, though.

TBH, the dragon ball threads have a somewhat toxic atmosphere. I won't point fingers, but I believe that if certain individuals stopped being abrasive as fuck the quality would improve. Kinda annoyed at stuff being retorted with a "no, that's stupid" everywhere, and opinions being stated as fact.

Unless you're expecting everyone to preface everything they say with "in my opinion" I don't know what you expect. Maybe I'm wrong about the others here, but I think most people know their opinions are just that.

And I don't see anything toxic about people being able to call out things they don't like. There's no need to sugarcoat things as long as we're not personally attacking people which I don't feel has happened.

@Saiga It's an unofficial Chinese manga that was originally published in 1998, shortly after the series proper ended. It has a buncha Uub, like everyone wants, and the art's actually not that bad for a two-decade old fan comic. There's a Facebook page where you can read the translated pages, since the website currently links you to some weird Russian Putin videos. [1]

Doesn't look very appealing to me. I am not one of the people who want "more Oob" and so many fanworks focus on that that it's not a draw for me. I took a quick look through, the art is a big turn off and it just looks weird and uninteresting.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#49654: Jan 13th 2017 at 8:41:40 PM

So what about a rebuilt, stronger Android 16 for the tournament? Would that be breaking the same rules as Cell and the cyborgs?

The legend has returned.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#49655: Jan 13th 2017 at 9:11:52 PM

Can't be done.

No one has his plans. Well, Bulma and her dad do, but even they could only just fix him. Only Gero was smart enough to flat out build Androids.

One Strip! One Strip!
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#49656: Jan 13th 2017 at 11:32:40 PM

I find the power scale of Dragon Ball to be rather amusing. We start off with Roshi vaporizing a huge mountain without much difficulty then move on to him destroying the Moon with some difficulty. Things just kind of hang out around this level with no noteworthy advancement being made and then you get to Vegeta and you're suddenly on the planet busting scale. Not even halfway through the series with the characters being incredibly weak to how they'd end up and they're already able to destroy planets with a bit of effort.

Then you reach First Form Freeza who's a casual planet buster. Then you have Cell's Kamehameha which apparently had the power to destroy the solar system (don't remember if that's in the manga or not, though). Then you reach Super Boo and SSJ 3 Gotenks who can rip holes through dimensions just by shouting really loudly.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#49657: Jan 13th 2017 at 11:42:40 PM

I think certain people care more about always being right all the time than they do about giving off a friendly atmosphere that allows for casual jokes and conversation. Just because someone said something that is factually incorrect while making a joke, does not mean that you have to nitpick and lecture them about exactly why their joke was bad and incorrect. You can just let that go and let people have their harmless fun.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#49658: Jan 14th 2017 at 12:10:12 AM

This talk about bringing villains has made me wonder... how is death going to be treated in the tournament. Are fighters allowed to die, and keep going while dead? Will dead fighters have a chance to be revived between matches? Will a team that lost a member be forced to stay without them for the remainder of the tournament.

I'll admit I'm assuming death is going to be allowed this time, mostly because of the higher stakes in general and the outside context nature of the tournament allowing stuff like that to be in something of a bubble anyway. Dragonball is unique in that it's (currently) a series where everyone can die and we can be assured that it'll all be fine eventually - as long as the plot allows.

The issue of stakes is an interesting one, as well. People are assuming that the Zenou Duumvirate are going to off anyone that loses, but iirc the exact information was more along the lines of teams getting wiped that didn't adequately entertain them - which gives me the impression that we might, say, get a team that wins but does so through cheating and subterfuge (a la Frost), which disappoints Zenou and causes him to off them instead. And that there'll be an instance where a really awesome team of likeable characters loses against the heroes, and everyone sweats thinking that they're going to be killed, only for in a twist the Zenou to have loved the match and be confused as to why everyone else seems to think they deserve death.

edited 14th Jan '17 12:11:09 AM by KnownUnknown

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#49659: Jan 14th 2017 at 12:17:24 AM

[up][up][up] And don't forget currently, we have Hit who can SKIP time, Goku who (at full power) can move FASTER than time, Merged Zamasu who FUSED WITH AN ENTIRE UNIVERSE, plus 2 Zenos who can HAKAI THE MULTIVERSE WITHIN SECONDS

edited 14th Jan '17 12:20:41 AM by Rinsankajugin

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49660: Jan 14th 2017 at 2:46:21 AM

I think if you can't say something directly don't say anything

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49661: Jan 14th 2017 at 3:34:38 AM

@Saiga

Vegeta was, at that point, less than half as strong as Freeza's first form, wasn't he? He was at a point where he wouldn't have been able to kill Freeza with a lucky shot before he transformed.

Vegeta did something incredibly suicidal out of extreme overconfidence and stupidity.

And even if Vegeta was goading Goku to take the attack... Vegeta fired the attack at the Earth. Had Goku lost, the planet would've been blown up anyway, killing Vegeta too. He was, after all, firing an attack at full power to overcome Goku's at a point in time when he didn't really know how to do the 'let's keep our attacks contained so we don't destroy the planet we're fighting in' thing that people do later.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49662: Jan 14th 2017 at 4:36:41 AM

Vegeta could have definitely killed him with a lucky shot. Even being twice as strong as someone isn't a guarantee they can never hurt you - especially not when the characters can charge up big attacks.

And it was not overconfidence at all. He wasn't confident. He did NOT want to fight Freeza without immortality, he said they MIGHT be able to beat Freeza together.

And no, you're making an assumption that doesn't line up with what we see. If Goku had been hit with the attack, he would have been destroyed instead of Earth. An attack that can destroy a powerful fighter and then the Earth has to be a lot stronger than one that will just destroy either. If Vegeta's attack was so powerful, there'd be no point even telling Goku to take it, he'd just aim to destroy Earth.

edit: He didn't fire it at the Earth. He fired it directly at Goku, and told Goku that if he dodged the Earth would be destroyed.

edited 14th Jan '17 4:37:16 AM by Saiga

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49663: Jan 14th 2017 at 5:10:11 AM

Vegeta could have definitely killed him with a lucky shot. Even being twice as strong as someone isn't a guarantee they can never hurt you - especially not when the characters can charge up big attacks.

Vegeta couldn't have killed Freeza with a lucky shot. He might have believed he could, but he'd be wrong. If he were to charge up a big attack, Freeza would definitely see it coming - see dodging a Kienzan he couldn't see coming which he couldn't feel either.

Basically, Vegeta threw everything on a ludicrously long shot and then made his odds even worse by telling Freeza to transform, knowing full well it would make him stronger, even if he didn't know Freeza would double his current powerlevel.

And it was not overconfidence at all. He wasn't confident. He did NOT want to fight Freeza without immortality, he said they MIGHT be able to beat Freeza together.

Even if it wasn't overconfidence, it's spectacular levels of suicidal stupidity anyway.

And no, you're making an assumption that doesn't line up with what we see. If Goku had been hit with the attack, he would have been destroyed instead of Earth. An attack that can destroy a powerful fighter and then the Earth has to be a lot stronger than one that will just destroy either. If Vegeta's attack was so powerful, there'd be no point even telling Goku to take it, he'd just aim to destroy Earth.

We know that attacks lose power when they're diverted or slapped aside, but we don't know if that is also the case when it just hits something before hitting something else.

Vegeta clearly wasn't expecting Goku to meet it with an equally powerful attack.

edit: He didn't fire it at the Earth. He fired it directly at Goku, and told Goku that if he dodged the Earth would be destroyed.

What I meant by saying that he fired it at Earth is that he fired it from the sky at Goku who was on the ground - meaning, he fired it in a way that would result in it hitting Earth immediately after going past Goku.

Vegeta engineered a situation where him winning could have resulted in his own death. Had Goku not just so happened to be able to fire a Kaioken Kamehameha strong enough to give his Gallick Gun a match, Vegeta's attack, PL ~18000-24000, would've hit Goku, PL 8000, killed him and likely not been slowed down enough to not destroy Earth.

However, you know what I just remembered?

It's entirely likely that Vegeta's Gallick Gun would not have destroyed Earth instantly. It would've likely resulted in a delayed destruction like Freeza. Vegeta is very, very stupid to the point of being Too Dumb to Live, but remembering the Freeza fight reminds me that they can do 5 Space Minutes, which would be more than enough to fetch his spaceship and leave.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#49664: Jan 14th 2017 at 5:54:12 AM

Frieza was surprised that the planet didn't blow up instantly, because he didn't realize that he held back too much.

Something about not destroying the core right away.

The reason the planet blew up in 5 minutes was the core was damaged enough that it would blow up on its own.

Not sure that's how planetary cores actually work.

edited 14th Jan '17 6:03:50 AM by unnoun

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#49665: Jan 14th 2017 at 6:39:59 AM

Blowing up a planet is quite hard in real life. Namek with a hole down to the core would have been torn apart and remodeled by tidal forces; also, the crust would probably melt apart due to the impact and all that.

But alas, the hole was caused by a guy who was strong enough he could fly with his mind. So trying to make sense doesn't work.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49666: Jan 14th 2017 at 6:46:19 AM

A guy who was strong enough to lift mountains with his mind.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49667: Jan 14th 2017 at 3:26:27 PM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#49668: Jan 14th 2017 at 3:45:15 PM

I think if you can't say something directly don't say anything

I'm sorry, Saiga, I didn't notice this before, let me try again: you have no chill, and your nitpicky and holier-than-thou attitude makes this thread's atmosphere toxic and uncomfortably tense. Please stop.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49669: Jan 14th 2017 at 3:49:39 PM

You are just going way too far into speculation there. The Kienzan is REALLY easy to dodge. It may be unlikely, but it is POSSIBLE for Vegeta to create attacks strong enough to hit Freeza, and it is POSSIBLE for him to land those blows on Freeza. Freeza's second form just made that possibility so very, very unlikely because it increased his strength by such a ludicrous degree.

It is not so much 'unlikely' as 'a snowball's chance in hell' chance for Vegeta to hurt Freeza, let alone actually kill him. The Kienzan is never said to be easier to dodge than any other attack. Hell, it hits Super Buu. The possibility of Vegeta killing first form Freeza is so minuscule as to be completely ridiculous, when the difference between them is 100% of Vegeta's power and a little more on top of that.

It's not stupidity, it's desperation and a lack of options. He had Freeza transform right away because he knew Freeza had a trump card, and he wanted to see what it was. In his own words "let's see what you're capable of" - if he doesn't know that, he can't plan around it.

So you're saying that telling an enemy that is already stronger than he is by a gigantic margin to transform into an even stronger form is desperation and not suicidal stupidity. This is an unbelievably stupid plan. If he is at all capable of creating attacks strong enough to kill Freeza, which is not a 0% probability but is still incredibly unlikely at best, then what would make sense would be for him to throw his everything into the gamble most likely to work, namely trying to kill Freeza before he transforms into an even stronger form.

And bringing up how this same gamble was succesful against Zarbon would be weak because the difference in this case is significantly bigger, and Zarbon was much weaker than Vegeta before transforming.

Not expecting Goku to hit it with an attack - but expecting him to take it with his body. You're assuming that hitting Goku would not divert the energy, despite the fact that we know other collisions do do that, despite the fact that there is nothing to suggest that and Vegeta's own dialogue saying that Goku being hit with it is a better result for Earth. it just doesn't make sense to assume it would destroy Earth anyway.

We have seen collisions divert energy when they're blocked, but not necessarily the case when people are overpowered by the attacks. Hell, Gohan was fearing his Kamehameha would destroy Earth when he was in the beam struggle with Cell.

edited 14th Jan '17 3:50:23 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#49670: Jan 14th 2017 at 3:54:31 PM

Dragon Ball characters can create Ki Attacks that are more than twice as strong as they are.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#49671: Jan 14th 2017 at 4:08:34 PM

I'm sorry, Saiga, I didn't notice this before, let me try again: you have no chill, and your nitpicky and holier-than-thou attitude makes this thread's atmosphere toxic and uncomfortably tense. Please stop.

I'd agree he tends to be nitpicky, not really sure on the no chill, and I just don't get a holier-than-thou attitude at all. He's just genuinely good at debating and as it happens he remembers more about this series than a lot of us do, in better details.

There might be such a thing as being too blunt, but it's kind of annoying how some people in this thread equate being direct with what you think and not really wanting to go out of your way to make sure no one is insulted, as the same thing as directly insulting someone.

Honestly, I'm not sure if that post counts as a personal attack or not. Probably not, but it kind of skirts the line to me.

edited 14th Jan '17 4:09:56 PM by LSBK

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49672: Jan 14th 2017 at 4:15:55 PM

[up][up]Vegeta is not one of the characters who could actually do that at that point in time, hence why he couldn't kill Recoome.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#49673: Jan 14th 2017 at 4:17:21 PM

[up]He did it on Earth, with his Galick Gun against Goku's Kamehameha.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49674: Jan 14th 2017 at 4:26:23 PM

It was nowhere near twice as powerful as he was though. If it had been Goku would've been boned.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#49675: Jan 14th 2017 at 4:29:02 PM

No he wouldn't have; Vegeta's power level would have been doubled to only 36,000, while Goku's was over 32,000 just from using the Kaio-ken x4 on it's own, and not factoring in the Kamehameha he was using as well.

Hell, even if we say that Vegeta's Galick Gun doubled his power, and only use both the Kaio-ken x3 for Goku and a 25-50% increase when using the Kamehameha, he'd either be slightly weaker or equal to Vegeta at that point.

edited 14th Jan '17 4:31:02 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!

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