TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49001: Jan 1st 2017 at 6:25:17 PM

[up][up] That is not true at all. He gains a lot of maturity as an adult, being knowledgeable on things he was previously naive on.

As an adult, in the manga, he simply does not have those moments any more. He's not a GENIUS at anything else, but he isn't shown struggling at non-fighting things any more. Later arcs are so focused on fighting that it does not come up often, but when it does he is not shown being particularly disadvantaged compared to the rest of the cast.

For example, when he doesn't understand Gohan, that's because of his own warped principles than idiocy. And then he later shows an understanding and acceptance of how his sons are different to him. He just doesn't have moments where he does ridiculous shit like forget the ofuda, fail to see through Beerus' Monaka disguise, coming up with nonsensical explanations for the inconsistencies he does notice, mistakenly believe Monaka is strong despite seeing evidence otherwise (seriously, he pulls the same shit with Old Kaioshin and immediately understands his mistake).

[up] Are you saying his mind/memory is starting to go in his age? That would be dark.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#49002: Jan 1st 2017 at 6:27:01 PM

[up]It would be consistent with his current characterization, and Goku feeling old has been an on-and-off theme in Super since it started.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49003: Jan 1st 2017 at 6:27:26 PM

but also, dark

edit: That's not to say I wouldn't be on board with a theme exploring Goku's mind slipping (it'd be like Josef in Part 4 of Jojo, that was fucking depressing). I don't think that's what Super is doing deliberately, though.

edited 1st Jan '17 6:28:22 PM by Saiga

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#49004: Jan 1st 2017 at 6:29:53 PM

I mean, the nonsensical explanations make sense, since he's actually fought or observed people doing those exact same things. Hell, even on Earth we have a guy who can split into multiple bodies and grow extra arms, and Goku has fought someone who can swap bodies with his opponent; not to mention all the other weird stuff that actually exists in this world, including a guy who stops time whenever he holds his breath.

[up] Do recall that Goku technically has brain damage...

edited 1st Jan '17 6:30:55 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49005: Jan 1st 2017 at 6:31:01 PM

It doesn't make sense because Goku is ignoring much more reasonable explanations and that is not consistent with his previous characterization.

It's funny, but it's not consistent.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#49006: Jan 1st 2017 at 6:32:37 PM

Goku hasn't really been dumb or stupid, just extremely forgetful lately, and his age has been mentioned often enough and consistently enough that the show clearly wants you to remember that fact about him.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49007: Jan 1st 2017 at 6:34:32 PM

Nothing in Super has been that consistent.[lol]

And no, it's more than forgetfulness - the stuff about Monaka isn't forgetfulness, that's just him drawing nonsensical conclusions to things.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#49008: Jan 1st 2017 at 6:37:07 PM

Welp! Saiga refuses to see things our way.

I say we assassinate him.tongue

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#49009: Jan 1st 2017 at 6:38:03 PM

Again, considering all he's dealt with in his near 50 years of life, he probably just assumes that "Monaka" just have some weird abilities. I mean, he just fought a bearman who could nullify all damage done to him by sending it to a pocket dimension, a Frost Demon with poison spikes, a Metal Man who spits lava and is weak to insults, and a man who can stop time, endlessly adapt to a battle, and as we saw in the last two episodes, possesses a lot more weird abilities.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#49010: Jan 1st 2017 at 6:56:33 PM

I can see it both ways really.

Though before I can really debate Saiga on it, I'm gonna have to thoroughly read the manga to the same point that he apparently has.

This is why I just want to assassinate him instead. less effort.tongue

Disclaimer: Rob does not wish any harm on Saiga, and does not want anyone to believe he does in anyway...also happy new year.

One Strip! One Strip!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49011: Jan 1st 2017 at 7:00:07 PM

It's funny that Goku's the archetypical example of the Idiot Hero most people think of in relation to anime, when he never really was actively dumb. Goku was, at worst, uneducated, and operates on principles and codes that are somewhat Blue-and-Orange Morality to us. He is an alien, his species' brain is wired differently than ours, and there are things that to us are the height of stupidity, but for another saiyan would be perfectly logical course of action to take.

The popular perception of the Idiot Hero that's based on him is based on a misconception, namely that he is actually dumb, and it led to spawning heroes who are truly doofuses such as Konoe Touta or Uzumaki Naruto, both of whom fill the mold of 'supremely talented at this one thing but dumber than rocks otherwise' much better than Goku ever did, and it's also the basis of the TFS portrayal of Goku as being clearly the dumbest person in the room everywhere he goes.

Or, in other words, the Goku of Super is way dumber than the Goku of the series that came before, and I'd say, it would not shock me to hear that the person who had the most input in Goku's actions in Super never read the Dragon Ball manga before working on Super.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49012: Jan 1st 2017 at 7:08:32 PM

[up] Well put. It's not just the Idiot Hero trope either, a lot of the spiritual successors born from Dragon Ball borrow elements that are either heavily flanderized or misinterpreted.

After such a long period, it shouldn't be a surprise that Super is influenced by the fandom perception of things that has built up over the years. Furthermore, Super is now being influenced by those series that have inaccurately followed Dragon Ball.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#49013: Jan 1st 2017 at 7:08:48 PM

So...Karrot is dumb, but not as dumb as exaggerated.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49014: Jan 1st 2017 at 7:09:02 PM

He's not dumb.

His actions look dumb from the perspective of someone with different priorities to him. He is aware of the risks and simply does not care.

edited 1st Jan '17 7:10:30 PM by Saiga

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#49015: Jan 1st 2017 at 7:09:53 PM

Okay...average intelligence at worst.

edited 1st Jan '17 7:10:18 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#49016: Jan 1st 2017 at 7:11:54 PM

I disagree.

If he were smart, he'd enter tournaments again, beat up everyone, and get rich, then he'd have all the money he'd ever need for him and his family, and he'd never have to stop training ever again.

Clearly, Goku is the dumbest man in dumb town.

Getting serious, maybe I really do need to start actually reading the entire manga from start to finish. Cause there are clearly a lot of nuances I've missed from going pure anime all these years.

One Strip! One Strip!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#49017: Jan 1st 2017 at 7:14:34 PM

Clearly...there should be a Character personality chart that gets updated upon character development to follow.

And it should be included in the series bible...it's obvious that Super Dragon Ball needs it.

edited 1st Jan '17 7:16:05 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49018: Jan 1st 2017 at 7:16:30 PM

[up][up] You DO realize you just used an example from Super, right? Manga Goku has never worried about money or been forced not to train.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#49019: Jan 1st 2017 at 7:32:14 PM

@Rob

Lucky for you, compared to the anime, the manga moves fast as shit, so that should be okay. To give you an idea?

Gohan's Kamehameha struggle VS Cell starts and ends on the same chapter. IIRC, it isn't even the whole chapter. I think it's only like 12 of 15 pages or so.

Yeah. That fast.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49020: Jan 1st 2017 at 8:04:22 PM

[up][up][up] Before your edit, I was going to mention that's why many series have a series bible.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#49021: Jan 1st 2017 at 8:28:38 PM

You DO realize you just used an example from Super, right? Manga Goku has never worried about money or been forced not to train.

Well, that's why he's dumb.

Though I should counter that his status in super (farming for income...I assume it's for income) is part of Toriyama's notes since it's in both the anime and manga version of Super. While he may not have cared before (because the Ox King was quite wealthy anyway) he clearly does by then. Enough to let Chi-Chi push him into farming.

So yeah. Dumb.evil grin

Right, I'm just trying (and likely failing) to screw with you. Getting serious again, if not Goku, since as you said, he gives no fucks about such things, I don't know why any of the Z Warriors never did that. I mean, If we ignore his cop job in Super, he never should have been living with Roshi. He could have swept every tournament during their seven year retirement and earned enough money to keep himself and his family in a damned mansion instead of living with Kamesennin.

Tien...also doesn't care about money though so he's out. And Yamcha is a bodyguard anyway, so he's good.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#49022: Jan 1st 2017 at 9:04:52 PM

Except, wouldn't most of this be because of Toriyama, due to him being the one who creates the outlines that Toei uses to make the anime? Like, Toriyama seems to put in the bare minimum in these outlines, so either Toei had to come up with some way to stall for time as Toriyama came up with the outlines and the ones for the next major arc, or he just put the Mafuba failing to stop Zamasu with no reason given for why, and Toei had to come up with a reason.

Likewise, it not being mentioned in the manga also doesn't mean much now, since we now know that Black was supposed to have both Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Rosé, but Toei cut the former out as they saw it was pointless for him to have that; at that point, either Toyotaro didn't add it because it wasn't in the outline, or he cut it out because he saw it as pointless due to it not really adding much, which we know Toriyama would allow since he's gone on record as saying that he's fine with Toyotaro adding his own ideas into the manga, and in fact would like him to do so.

edited 1st Jan '17 9:06:12 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#49023: Jan 1st 2017 at 10:14:03 PM

The Black arc isn't done in the manga yet, so it's not out of the question for him to get Rose at this point.

That point about the Idiot Hero is pretty funny; it's literally a meme, yet somehow it got twisted into being a reality. I see so many people complain about how much of a dumbass Goku is in Super when they're probably the ones who accused him of being such in the first place.

Basically, it's a joke gone too far..

edited 1st Jan '17 10:16:01 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#49024: Jan 1st 2017 at 10:16:32 PM

[up][up] I'm not saying all the flanderization comes from Toei, I'm sure that Toriyama is also contributing elements as it has been a long time since he has written Dragon Ball. But stuff like the Beerus-as-Monaka and Mafuba is probably straight from Toei, so they're the contributors of the worst elements.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#49025: Jan 1st 2017 at 11:07:47 PM

So, I was rewatching the Goku vs Slug fight, and I have to ask; why didn't Goku, at any point, try to use the Kaio-ken on Lord Slug before he went Pseudo Super Saiyan?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!

Total posts: 130,800
Top