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Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#4876: Feb 10th 2014 at 7:01:32 PM

[up] I'll get the popcorn and the swords.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4877: Feb 10th 2014 at 9:29:48 PM

On Vegeta hate: I find it ironic that Vegeta fans so often cite his sacrifice against Fat Buu as his best moment. I actually think that's his best moment too, or at least the one I like the most... because of how completely pathetic and worthless it makes him look. It's what he deserves. Chiaotzu got more dignity than this; Chiaotzu. And even the anime, which had him get the shit kicked out of him twice by Super Buu (he narrowly avoided this fate both times in the manga) and extended Pure Buu's beat down of him from 10 minutes to three hours didn't go far enough.

There should have been another filler scene where Super Buu literally mops the floor with him, or brags about killing his wife and son to goad Vegeta into a headfirst charge, then catches his punch, crushes his hand, and breaks his arm sadistically, while mocking him the same way he mocked Gohan in the dub. Then he can literally beat the piss out of Vegeta and continue to mock him after he starts to cry from pain/sadness. He then deems Vegeta too pathetic to bother with and just kicks him away to lie in a puddle of his own tears, blood, and urine. Or one where Pure Buu detaches his arm and has it fight Vegeta alone while he sleeps, and the arm still beats him to a pulp. Vegeta can angrily demand to be taken seriously by the demon only to be slugged across the face by the detached arm mid-sentence.

edited 10th Feb '14 9:34:24 PM by sockpuppet1

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#4878: Feb 10th 2014 at 10:12:31 PM

I really think you're going too far with the hate right now.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4879: Feb 10th 2014 at 10:18:00 PM

One can never go too far in their hate of Vegeta.

RedM Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
#4880: Feb 10th 2014 at 10:23:10 PM

I like Vegeta, I just don't like how much adoration he gets, considering he spends a fair amount of the series doing something along the lines of this: [1]

The very best, like no one ever was. Check out my Spider-Man fanfic here! [1]
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4881: Feb 10th 2014 at 10:23:42 PM

For me, I loved Vegeta growing up just like most other kids. With age though, I've come to appreciate more and more watching him get demolished by Android 18.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#4882: Feb 10th 2014 at 10:30:23 PM

I was sorta meh about Vegeta. I like him now, but I don't like the immense fanboying and wanking he gets. It's not as bad as Broly, but still.

I'm willing to divorce him as a character from the public perception and fanbase, though, and consider him an interesting if too-easily-forgiven character.

Though I'd imagine the fact that the Dragon Ball universe has both a confirmed-to-exist and pleasant afterlife as well as ways to bring people back to the world of the living kinda diminishes the evilness of murder.

edited 10th Feb '14 10:31:41 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
RedM Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
#4883: Feb 10th 2014 at 10:37:37 PM

[up]At what point does murder just become an April Fools' prank in this universe?

Goku: "Hey, Yamcha, Happy Friendship Day! I got you this gift!"

Yamcha: "What? That's a thing? Why didn't I know about this? I didn't get you anything..."

Goku: "Well, yes, that's because you're Yamcha. Now open the gift!"

(Yamcha opens the box, a kamehameha that's been held in there shoots out and melts his face. Goku high-fives Krillin.)

edited 10th Feb '14 10:37:50 PM by RedM

The very best, like no one ever was. Check out my Spider-Man fanfic here! [1]
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4884: Feb 10th 2014 at 11:10:41 PM

I don't like him as much as I used to, but it's not because of the praise he gets. He gets just as much undue hate as he does undue praise now. He's still one of my favourite characters.

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4885: Feb 11th 2014 at 12:03:18 AM

[up] Curious: why do you not like him as much as you used to?

On a similar note, I'm beginning to like Freeza less. I still like the general 'air' surrounding him, but upon actually reading the whole Saiyan arc again, I see that Freeza himself is just a really sloppy retcon, and something of a Vegeta clone.

[up][up][up][up] I always hated him as a kid. Then again, I also thought that the Super Buu was a "cheater" for stopping Goku and Gohan from fusing and absorbing people when they're off-guard, so it probably wasn't for the best reasons.

edited 11th Feb '14 12:04:57 AM by sockpuppet1

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#4886: Feb 11th 2014 at 4:34:50 AM

Vegeta's character development is the best case of character development in Z. It just took his pride repeatedly getting stomped in for it to take hold. The way I see it, the true protagonists of Dragonball Z are Gohan and Vegeta (Goku is the hero [think of how Darth Vader is the protagonist of Star Wars, but Luke is the hero]).

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#4887: Feb 11th 2014 at 5:12:49 AM

Vegeta is the most developed, and awesome, character in all of Z. Piccolo, Chi-Chi, and Gohan are close seconds. Gohan and Chi-Chi were already protagonists, and Piccolo only mattered in the slightest after the Cell saga.

He's got that adoration because of his The Determinator status. He's the Batman of the Z-team, the Anti-Hero, the mischievous rogue who doesn't 'fraid of anything.

His Super Saiyan theme is sick.

Don't knock Vegeta. You want to piss on Bardock for being the Ensemble Dark Horse, go ahead. Vegeta actually deserves respect. Yeah he bitches about not being a Super Saiyan. Because it's essentially what he considers his birth right, and no matter how hard he tries it takes him forever and a day to achieve it. And only after a Saiyan he considers inferior to himself achieves it first. And then he gets his ass kicked despite this. And yet, afterward, he still resolves to get stronger.

And then there's the face Kid Buu made when Vegeta got back up. He actually scared the omnicidal monster with how tough he was.

EDIT: And no, my avatar and the argument I'm making here are purely coincidental.

edited 11th Feb '14 5:28:38 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4888: Feb 11th 2014 at 5:15:54 AM

[up][up][up] Mainly because of the change in his characterisation in the Cell and Boo arcs. Namek Vegeta was just more awesome and him moving away from that made me like him less.

MsCC93 Since: May, 2012
#4889: Feb 11th 2014 at 6:04:38 AM

I don't hate Vegeta, but I hate some of his fans with every fiber of my being, because they always portray him as a saint compared to other characters, and it's annoying how he gets away with things that other characters will be demonized for doing.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#4890: Feb 11th 2014 at 6:17:45 AM

[up]

because they always portray him as a saint compared to other characters

I certainly don't. He's a villain early on, short and simple, who got lucky to be included in the Big Namek Revival Wish, sure. This is why Piccolo made the point that, despite Vegeta deciding to go out in a blaze of glory and killing a greater evil in the process, he would still be sent to Hell for leading his life in the pursuit of destruction, even if under Frieza's command, for his acts even following Frieza's death.

It's his gradual redemption and, well, the very monologue he gives during the final battle that makes me appreciate his character development. I don't know if that scene made it into the manga, but if it didn't, then it's a crying shame.

And the anime ends just in time so it doesn't turn into a running gag like some Bash Brothers, with a rivalry that's insinuated to be friendly, but contains so much vitrol it borders on sexual tension. Vegeta's thoughts end on that poetic note of him finally accepting his place in life and not constantly trying to one-up "Kakarot" or being hostile toward him.

As long as we ignore Yo! Son Goku and Friends Return anyway...

edited 11th Feb '14 6:22:05 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4891: Feb 11th 2014 at 7:41:41 AM

[up][up][up][up] Dammit Vegeta, cut it out with the sock puppet accounts.

[up][up][up] Oh, I thought you were talking about liking him less now than you did back then, rather than liking him less as the story went on.

So then he didn't cry tears of fear against Freeza?

Batman? No. Batman is a badass normal. Vegeta is a whiny brat whose power mostly comes from genetics (fucking stupid Namek healing boosts...). Mr. Satan is the Batman. Or maybe Bulma.

Actually, I think I will knock Vegeta, for basically turning the second half of Z into an Idiot Plot (well, more of one) and being a deranged psychopath who never receives the proper karma. I'm also not sure how showing him failing then getting trolled by the main villain is supposed to impress me.

Filler. Particularly BS and contradictory filler too. In the actual events that actually happened, Pure Buu laughed the whole time while ass-stomping Vegeta and considered him a complete joke.

I also never got why fans consider these two rivals as far as the manga is concerned. Goku seems to completely disregard Vegeta after he far surpasses him forever.

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#4892: Feb 11th 2014 at 10:47:59 AM

[up] The whole "Vegeta-respects-Goku-and-accepts-he's-better-than-him" scene does happen in the manga but it takes place before Vegeta fought Pure Boo and while SSJ 3 Goku is fighting Pure Boo than anime just time change the timing of the speech because the unnecessarily stretched out the fight.

As far as how I feel for the character Vegeta himself... he is hand's down the most developed character and I agree with Soble that he deserves respect for growing out of his, at times, childish and petulant rivalry with Goku. However, I also agree with Ms CC 93 that the Vegeta fanboys are fucking intolerable. They are among the worst fanboys of an anime character I've seen in many years. They think Vegeta should have killed every main villain that has ever existed in the Dragon Ball universe. But I personally see Vegeta as the best and worst thing the happen to the Dragon Ball franchise. Best, in the fact that his popularity is one of the main reason Dragon Ball Z became so popular initially and the worst in the fact that now any time there has ever been a new villain introduced they want Vegeta to kill him and no one else.

edited 11th Feb '14 12:21:16 PM by FireShadow

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#4893: Feb 11th 2014 at 11:28:17 AM

[up]x4, I hate, hate, hate leather pantsing. Painting Vegeta as anything less than an evil dickhead completely invalidates the marvelous development he got. He even outright says he was an evil dickhead when he's explaining why he let Babidi get him.

Any fan that does that isn't a true fan. Or rather, they don't understand what makes Vegeta a great character.

[up]x3, I try to forget that scene ever happened. I understand it's a groundbreaking scene for the Vegeta character, but my inner fanboy is too strong to acknowledge it. I always wanted Vegeta to be the strongest since he fucking worked his ass off for it. He's of high pedigree and works his ass off, but Goku is a combat genius. That's why that one scene in Bo G where he does better than SS 3 Goku was so good to me.

[up]x2, Yeah, I'm not seeing the logic. Vegeta cried because his whole world was shattered right there. He realized that despite all he had done, Frieza was just too far above him. That was a soul-crushing realization for the man that moments before thought he was going to end Frieza and avenge his race. He had to swallow his pride and beg Goku to do it in his place.

Standing up no matter how many times you get knocked down is an admirable virtue. He always forced himself up against his opponents as long as he was conscious. Vegeta's will is indomitable, so that's why those moments where he loses are still fucking cool. I'd take Vegeta getting slapped around by Buu and keep getting up over Vegeta oneshotting him anyday.

And people consider Vegeta the rival because that's what Vegeta considers himself to be while staying somewhat relevant.

edited 11th Feb '14 11:39:23 AM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4894: Feb 11th 2014 at 12:06:22 PM

They were Tears of Fear. The narrator explicitly said this (so did Kaio, I think). So "Vegeta isn't afraid of anything" is wrong. No one in this series is completely fearless, I don't think. Even Goku was scared of Super Buu.

True, I like that quality. I just don't think it makes up for his other qualities or his overall effect on the story.

Please. Vegeta lost relevance around the same time as Piccolo. By the Cell Games, he was trash, and trying to pretend otherwise in the Buu arc just got him humiliated.

Vegeta only has the third most annoying fans (seriously, he already got waaaaaaaay more than he deserved, more victories than any other non-villain aside from Goku). The most annoying are Broly and Vegetto/Gogeta fanboys.

Yeah, Vegeta was all obsessed with surpassing Goku, while Goku just didn't care. It takes two to tango. Rivals they are not.

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#4895: Feb 11th 2014 at 12:46:51 PM

[up] In all fairness, pretty much all of the Z-Fighters, with the exception of Gohan, lost relevance by the time the Cell Games started. Hell, even when Goku became a Super Saiyan 3 asll those years later, it was just another Awesome, but Impractical technique.

And as far as the "rivalry" between Goku and Vegeta... honestly, I think Goku considers Vegeta more of an Worthy Opponent than a rival at least. If he didn't, I'm pretty sure he would have let Krillin kill him in the Saiyan Arc.

edited 11th Feb '14 12:49:14 PM by FireShadow

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#4896: Feb 11th 2014 at 12:48:19 PM

Yeah, even if Goku didn't see Vegeta from the strict rival standpoint of "My life is defined by kicking his ass" that Vegeta had, Goku still saw Vegeta as the strongest person he'd ever met, a guy he KNEW was even stronger than him, and a guy he'd love to fight again and see turned to the side of good.

My various fanfics.
Handsomerob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#4897: Feb 11th 2014 at 12:56:56 PM

[up][up][up]

You may be letting your disdain for the character colour your opinion a bit.

Nothing wrong with that. It happens all the time.

As for me, I like Vegeta. Yeah, he's a bastard, a selfish prick, and a murderer, but he's got his pride in his race, he's got his raw determination, and while he is a Prince, and maybe a bit spoiled, he never just sits around expecting things to happen. he goes out and earns it....I think.

And there is that thing with Babidi as well.

He is ironically enough,one of the few rivals who Goku has never actually beaten in a one on one fight. You could argue that, even if he had to go to extremes, Vegeta won the single battle with Goku, but ultimately lost the war.

On Namek, he was possibly at his best: With the full focus on getting the Dragonballs and gaining immorttality, there was no room for his greatest weakness, that being his ego.

And look how well he fared with it. Cui, Dodoria, Zarbon (after a bad first try), and most of the Ginyu (though he only got Recoome, Guldo, and Burter due to cheap shots, but still). He had his eye on the prize the whole time. And he was merely a step away from actually gaining immortality as well. Imagine how things would go then.

During the Cell series, he was at his most determined and petulant. As the Dragon Ball Abridged series so gleefully parodied, his desire to be a Super-Saiyan mainly came from his belief that as one of the elite, it was his birthright. In the end, he really did only achieve it by having a big ass temper tantrum. Though you can understand his frustration: he's putting himself through all this harsh training, nearly killing himself over and over again, and nothing is changing. That'd piss anyone off.

And if you hate him, you can enjoy watching him suffer.

The Cell series also reminds us of his determination: the same determination that let him get so far on Namek(along with a fuck load of luck to be fair). He gets knocked down, but he gets up again, cause neither Android 18, or Cell can keep him down, to paraphrase the song. When he's finds out he's not good enough, he gets rip shit pissed and becomes determined to change that, because Dammit! He's Vegeta, Prince of the Motherfucking Saiyans, and he has to be good enough.

Then comes Buu. The incident with Babidi is arguably Vegeta at his absolute best, and worst. He lets himself be controlled, and kills a lot of innocent people, all for a fight only he cares about, but at the same time, he's so fucking set on it, so singlemindedly determined, so...prideful, that even while technically under mind control, he can still tell the guy controlling him to go fuck himself.

As Babidi put it, since when can the puppet say no to the puppet master? When he's Vegeta! Motherfucking Prince of all Saiyans, that's when!evil grin

And then he does jack shit.tongue Because he may be the Prince of all Saiyans, but the hero, he is not.

So Vegeta is an arrogant shit, a murderer, a massive Blood Knight, a rival, a father, an ally, and hell, with his personality, he could easily be an enemy again one day.

Wouldn't have him any other way, nor would I give up any aspect of his character....

I would however, let others get some glory beyond said Prince and the other Saiyans, but we've had that argument already, and I don't think I can strengthen my point at all.

edited 11th Feb '14 3:10:03 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#4898: Feb 11th 2014 at 3:51:56 PM

They were Tears of Fear.

I never said they were otherwise. He didn't enter terrified of Frieza. It was only after seeing how shit he was next to him that the fear sunk in.

Please. Vegeta lost relevance around the same time as Piccolo. By the Cell Games, he was trash, and trying to pretend otherwise in the Buu arc just got him humiliated.

A character's value is not determined solely by how strong a punch they can throw. Vegeta maintained relevancy to the plot regardless of his power level at the time. And the narrative itself keeps him on a higher level of relevancy than a Tenshinhan or even a Piccolo.

Yeah, Vegeta was all obsessed with surpassing Goku, while Goku just didn't care. It takes two to tango. Rivals they are not.

Nope. If I hate your guts but you kiss the ground I walk on, you're still my enemy. Goku, to Vegeta, is his rival. What puts him above Tien and the others is the fact that it's still believable that he could catch up to or surpass Goku.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#4899: Feb 11th 2014 at 4:20:58 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if Goku considers Vegeta a sort of rival, too. Rivalry doesn't have to be malicious or antagonistic, it just means someone you compete with, for better or for worse.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4900: Feb 11th 2014 at 4:23:36 PM

Oh, I thought you were talking about liking him less now than you did back then, rather than liking him less as the story went on.

I was, you didn't understand me, but it's both. I just didn't notice the difference because back then I never watched the series in order or completely.


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