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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#48626: Dec 20th 2016 at 7:00:40 AM

Becuase Goku Black has no way to know how strong Goku or Vegeta were.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#48627: Dec 20th 2016 at 7:09:30 AM

He can sense their Ki tho.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#48628: Dec 20th 2016 at 7:12:32 AM

They don't go around flaring it up.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#48629: Dec 20th 2016 at 8:50:05 AM

Alright. Completely forgot the second trip they made to the past.

  • Goku and Vegeta head to the future to fight Black.
  • Black shanks Vegeta and beats Goku and Trunks down. The heroes escape.
  • They come back a 2nd time, but this is when Zamasu reveals that he killed Goku's family and all hell breaks loose.
  • Black and Zamasu work together and beat Trunks, Goku, and Vegeta.
  • Trunks activates his new form, but this only serves to hold the line while Goku and Vegeta retreat.
  • Vegeta and Goku go back to the past. Vegeta trains in the ROSAT and Goku learns the Mafuba.
  • They head back a 3rd time, Vegeta kicks Black's ass, Goku uses the Mafuba on Zamasu.

Based on that:

So after doing that, even less training is enough for Vegeta to overwhelm a guy who kicked his ass. That's about a clear a contradiction as can be

Less training yes, but the gap between Vegeta and Black wasn't far to begin with. He didn't "get his ass kicked," Black caught him off-guard in the first round, and Black and Zamasu were working together in the second. Vegeta saw the sword coming in the third.

When Vegeta overwhelms Black in the third round, he's had 2 power-ups, 3-6 months to train and prepare for a rematch, and has Goku successfully aggro'ing Zamasu in his corner. The third fight goes the same way the first did except Black isn't able to catch Vegeta off-guard, and Vegeta is stronger than he was previously.

Prior to entering Vegeta evens says they're close to reaching their limits, and do not have a lot to gain from that training.

That contradicts what he says here. They wouldn't have noticeable improvement after leaving the ROSAT because the only opponent to compare their full power to was Hit. They'd still be laughably above everyone else in Universe 6 with or without the training, as demonstrated by neither of them going higher than Super Saiyan against everyone but Hit and Cabba. The only ways they'd have noticeable improvement would be lasting longer against Beerus, or by obtaining Super Saiyan Mahogany.

The near death power-ups haven't actually been a thing for Goku and Vegeta since the Freeza arc.

.. Even before Universe 6 arc went with the "they are nearing their limits", you can see the signs for it back in the Boo arc. Yes, Gotenks and Gohan got huge power-ups in that arc, but that's because they have higher limits to reach. Vegeta and Goku spent 7 years training intensely, and their biggest benefit comes from having new transformations.

Kaioken hasn't been a thing since the Frieza arc. That didn't mean Goku couldn't use it anymore. There's no reason to assume that their species's biological ability has simply stopped working when we've seen it work for Cell.

Despite the amount of time they spent training SS 2 Goku wasn't much stronger than Cell Games SS 2 Gohan and Vegeta hadn't even surpassed that level.

There's no comparison between SS 2 Goku and Cell Saga SS 2 Gohan, and Vegeta didn't need to unlock SS 3 because Blue was better. Goku hasn't used SS 3 since his spar with Trunks, so Vegeta not unlocking it speaks to its inferiority rather than Vegeta's inability to obtain it through regular training. He did obtain SS 2 through regular training.

edited 20th Dec '16 4:08:47 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
DS9guy Since: Jan, 2001
#48630: Dec 20th 2016 at 11:58:56 AM

Something just occurred to me. Why did Grand Elder Guru come back to life? He wasn't killed by Freeza and his henchmen.

edited 20th Dec '16 11:59:22 AM by DS9guy

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#48631: Dec 20th 2016 at 12:00:11 PM

It was an indirect death...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#48632: Dec 20th 2016 at 12:00:25 PM

This is mentioned when the wish is made.

He was already dying, but his first death was not due to old age, but due to heartbreak over Frieza and his men killing his children.

So he actually was killed by Frieza, even if only indirectly. That's why he was brought back by the wish. It's actually one of the reasons they made the wish.

Edit: Murasaki'ed.

edited 20th Dec '16 12:00:47 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#48634: Dec 20th 2016 at 12:00:39 PM

His death was hastened by the grief of Frieza and his guys murdering all of his children. Pretty sure they even say it. It's why he dies soon after coming back; he was already on his way out, Frieza just hurried it up a tiny bit.

[up][up]DAMN YOU ROB! You [nja]'d me!

edited 20th Dec '16 12:01:29 PM by LSBK

DS9guy Since: Jan, 2001
#48635: Dec 20th 2016 at 12:03:49 PM

Anybody watch Dragon Ball Dissection by Mistare Fusion? I love the guy.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#48636: Dec 20th 2016 at 12:12:38 PM

[up][up]Well, Randomness ninja'ed me first.

What can you do man?

One Strip! One Strip!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#48637: Dec 20th 2016 at 12:19:03 PM

Giving more detail makes the post more worthwhile...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#48638: Dec 20th 2016 at 3:26:09 PM

The best part about the scene where Guru gets wished back to life is that the limitation that the dragons can't revive people who died from natural causes was (to the best of my knowledge) never mentioned before that scene.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#48639: Dec 20th 2016 at 3:32:13 PM

It was never a factor before that point, so why even bring it up before then?

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#48640: Dec 20th 2016 at 3:38:39 PM

Because why bring it up then? Why say that a guy can't be brought back to life immediately before revealing that he actually can?

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#48641: Dec 20th 2016 at 3:50:12 PM

Because at that point it's relevant to note it, because they're not 100% sure it's possible.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#48642: Dec 20th 2016 at 3:52:40 PM

It's because the dragon brings you back at the state you were before dying (think Freeza who got brought back in pieces) so bringing someone who's natural lifespan has run out would just result in them dying again immediately. Guru had a bit of natural lifespan left, so he could hold out for a while.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#48643: Dec 20th 2016 at 4:01:22 PM

So how strong would a sword made out of Katchin be?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#48644: Dec 20th 2016 at 4:20:21 PM

It would be: ∞

About that strong.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#48645: Dec 20th 2016 at 4:39:30 PM

Hard doesn't necessarily mean strong. You don't see diamond blades in use (diamond-crusted blades have some industrial applications, but not pure diamond).

Also, with blades, hard doesn't equal sharp. The sharpest known substance is obsidian, but obsidian is super brittle and tends to break after cutting one thing.

edited 20th Dec '16 4:40:27 PM by DarkHunter

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#48646: Dec 20th 2016 at 4:46:23 PM

Well, according to Online, Trunks and Goten discovered a way to cut Katchin, so it's not indestructible.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#48647: Dec 20th 2016 at 4:52:24 PM

Slightly less than ∞

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#48648: Dec 20th 2016 at 4:56:21 PM

So...a Katchin-crusted Z Sword then?

edited 20th Dec '16 4:56:35 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#48649: Dec 20th 2016 at 4:59:14 PM

wild mass guess Magetta is made of Katchin. The color matches up, and I don't think he can produce Ki to protect his body, if at all.wild mass guess

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#48650: Dec 20th 2016 at 5:49:36 PM

Well, Obsidian doesn't necessarily break after one use - only if you're a barbarian and try to chop something with an obsidian knife.

The real problem is that they lose their edge nigh-immediately, and sharpening one is not exactly easy, especially since they're so brittle.

Incidentally, you're still not at peak cutting power, that's still the domain of highly pressurized water, for the time being.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari

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