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MikeBreezy92 Storm King Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Noddin' my head like yeah
Storm King
#4826: Feb 9th 2014 at 11:13:01 AM

Yeah, I can see how Trunks...*may* have gotten SS 2 and SS 3 but Bardock? Nah....

youtube.com/Fire Trainer 92
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4827: Feb 9th 2014 at 11:27:34 AM

Trunks shouldn't be training either. He's (literally) got god-like power at this point, and stomped the androids and Cell. At most I see him doing "maintenance". He's still got a world to rebuild after the population dropped from 6 billion to less than 100,000.

On the person who said Future Trunks had the best deal: I wouldn't say he was the ONLY one to get a good deal in this arc, but yeah, they gave him way too much. He got to destroy Freeza and Cell. Even when you consider all the weird alternate timeline and AU crap going on in this arc, only two other characters (Gohan and Pikkon) have this honor.

edited 9th Feb '14 11:28:24 AM by sockpuppet1

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#4828: Feb 9th 2014 at 4:31:04 PM

I'd say Trunks deserved his happy ending.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4829: Feb 9th 2014 at 4:52:33 PM

Yes. But I don't think he deserved that much. Him killing the androids and Cold already would have been plenty.

Oh, and I know we've moved on from this, but another thing I'd like to bring up that was deconstructed/parodied in the Majin Buu arc is Chi Chi's bitchiness. It was a Running Gag that everyone was afraid of her and most other angry females via gag logic. Then she tried her usual "angrily bitch" thing on Majin Buu... who killed her without even looking at her. In front of her kid.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4830: Feb 9th 2014 at 4:55:36 PM

Killing first-form Cell is nothing at that point in the story, and it would be unfitting without it because killing Cell sets him apart from the other Trunks who killed the Androids but was in turn killed by Cell. Cold coming to Earth by himself would have just been weird, and rather pointless since he's weaker than Freeza. He would've been even more of a wasted character in that case.

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#4831: Feb 9th 2014 at 5:00:08 PM

Trunks definitely deserved his happy ending. His was only hero in history of the series who applied the "Kill them while they're distracted" or "Attack them while they power up" strategy. He was the Combat Pragmatist Dragon Ball deserved and needed. And I also gotta admit... he pretty damn handsome. I mean... I know I'm a dude... but.. I'm not gay or anything...... (runs away)

edited 9th Feb '14 5:08:22 PM by FireShadow

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4832: Feb 9th 2014 at 5:02:49 PM

[up][up]It is nothing- even Piccolo can do it easily- but the fact of the matter is that the arc opened with him stomping Freeza and ended with him stomping Cell. The story was written in a way that justified it, but I don't think it should have been. I just think he got way too much to do, while others like Piccolo and even Vegeta were kinda screwed over.

How so? King Cold is still Freeza's rival, so taking him out in one hit would still be impressive, and it's Dragon Ball tradition to have a stand-in for the last villain who is somewhat weaker than them get dispatched effortlessly to hype up a new character. Like Drum/Old Piccolo with Goku, and the Cultivars/Raditz with the human Z-fighters and Piccolo.

[up] Ummmm, Goku pulled that same strategy several times throughout the story, and numerous other characters tried "hit them while they're distracted". And, even though he's a villain, so did Super Buu.

Trunks got tons of idiocy, like trying to use Grade III, not stopping Vegeta when he thought he could, arrogantly charging into numerous battles he had no chance of winning, letting Gero get away, and fucking up the timelines and not knowing that he did, to balance out his supposed pragmatic characteristics.

edited 9th Feb '14 5:05:13 PM by sockpuppet1

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#4833: Feb 9th 2014 at 5:27:58 PM

He tried to use Grade 3 because he's nowhere near as experienced as Goku and Vegeta. He respects and loves his father, despite his shortcomings. I'd say letting Gero get away is on everyone there and to pin it on Trunks is ridonculous. Fucking up the timelines is better than the alternative of everyone dying. Killing first form Cell and Androids that are said to be weaker than the ones in the main timeline is nothing to write home about. As a Vegeta fan (and I mean fan as in he's my favorite character in all of fiction), I love the Android Arc. His development was great, even if his kill count was subpar.

Trunks' humility is what makes me like the character.

edited 9th Feb '14 5:30:22 PM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4834: Feb 9th 2014 at 5:59:58 PM

The thing is that the arc opening with him beating Freeza and closing with his defeat of Cell means nothing without context. And with context, it's fine. What he does in his own timeline can't screw anyone over, and Piccolo's fusion isn't going to be any less squandered based on what Trunks did before he ever fused. Vegeta got screwed over in regards to his characterisation more than anything else, a separate issue.

Drum was impressive because he was beating up a guy that was Goku's equal before. It showed how he improved very quickly. The cultivars actually weren't that impressive, except for when Kuririn took out multiples of them. Cold coming to Earth alone would be completely different than a powered up Freeza coming to Earth with his father backing him up - and there's no good that comes from just axing Freeza there.

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4835: Feb 9th 2014 at 6:16:57 PM

Regardless of context, you don't think him taking out three separate major threats, including two people that were previously the Big Bads of their respective arcs, on top of fighting evenly with a Junior and saving Goku by bringing the medicine and the warning, is a little excessive? Especially when you consider that every other character in this arc got one or two victories max. Trunks gets more solo victories than any (non-villain) character period except for Goku and Vegeta, and he's only around for one arc.

I'm not saying that him taking out those guys screws anyone ever (actually, him killing Freeza does kinda screw Goku over), I'm just pointing out how much glory he gets here compared to everyone else. Kamiccolo should have had some big moments; he got basically none, while Trunks got at least three.

That's what I'm saying. Drum easily defeated Ten, Old Piccolo easily defeated Goku (equal to Ten), Raditz easily defeated Piccolo and Goku, and the Cultivars rival Raditz. The Cultivars and Drum being dispatched effortlessly is supposed to be impressive, even though they're not quite as strong as old Picoclo/Raditz. It shows how far our heroes have improved, which is emphasized when Nappa exclaims that it's impossible that any Earthling could defeat a Cultivar after Ten does so. Having Trunks kill Cold would be the same thing. Plus, it would be a far more fitting end to the character of Freeza to have him die on Namek.

Also, it doesn't matter that Freeza was powered up, because he stayed in base without bulking up (he didn't get a chance, Trunks killed him too fast). So either way, it's just Trunks taking out someone weaker than 100% Freeza, yet close enough that one-shotting him is impressive.

edited 9th Feb '14 6:56:04 PM by sockpuppet1

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#4836: Feb 9th 2014 at 6:46:46 PM

How powerful is Jaco or Arale?

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4837: Feb 9th 2014 at 6:48:52 PM

Arale punched a planet in half.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#4838: Feb 9th 2014 at 6:53:21 PM

[up][up][up] Trunks killing Frieza isn't really that impressive since a) Frieza still wouldn't have stood a chance against Namek Goku, b) Trunks was only supposed to be as strong as Goku was back on Namek, and c) he killed him when he was distracted and never even gave him the chance to power-up at all.

edited 9th Feb '14 6:53:31 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4839: Feb 9th 2014 at 6:56:38 PM

Regardless of context, you don't think him taking out three separate major threats, including two people that were previously the Big Bads of their respective arcs, is a little excessive? Especially when you consider that every other character in this arc got one or two victories max. Trunks gets more solo victories than any character period except for Goku and Vegeta, and he's only around for one arc.

No, I don't think it's excessive. And how are you counting his victories? If you're counting groups as one victory than he had three (Freeza/Cold, Androids, Cell) and counting individuals than he had five. That's less than Piccolo (Kuririn, God, Saibaiman, 20, Cell, Babidi), less than Kuririn (Bacterian, Chaozu, three Saibaimen, Freeza goon, Pintar), and when counting individuals less than Gohan (Freeza goon, 8 Cell Juniors, Cell). He gets more kills than most in the arc but that's fair since he's only around for the arc.

I'm not saying that him taking out those guys screws anyone ever (actually, him killing Freeza does kinda screw Goku over), I'm just pointing out how much glory he gets here compared to everyone else. Kamiccolo should have had some big moments; he got basically none, while Trunks got at least three.

I just don't see the need to compare them unless Trunks' moments came at an expense to Kamiccolo. I do think that Kamiccolo should have had something, but that doesn't mean Trunks got too much.

That's what I'm saying. Drum easily defeated Ten, Old Piccolo easily defeated Goku (equal to Ten), Raditz easily defeated Piccolo and Goku, and the Cultivars rival Raditz. The Cultivars and Drum being dispatched effortlessly are supposed to be impressive, even though they're not quite as strong as old Picoclo/Raditz. It shows how far our heroes have improved, which is emphasized when Nappa exclaims that it's impossible that any Earthling could defeat a Cultivar after Ten does so. Having Trunks kill Cold would be the same thing. Plus, it would be a far more fitting end to the character of Freeza to have him die on Namek.

What I'm saying is that Drum was only impressive because of the previous tie between Goku and Tenshinhan. If it wasn't for that it wouldn't have really worked. And though the Saibaimen showed the improvements in the Earthlings, the only really impressive moment was that Kuririn could destroy on multiples of them. And no, I don't think Trunks killing Cold would be the same thing. We're not seeing an improvement in Trunks because he's a new character, and so we're seeing a Super Saiyan beat up a weaker guy than the last Super Saiyan we saw. I also don't find a Namek death to be any more fitting for Freeza.

Also, it doesn't matter that Freeza was powered up, because he stayed in base without bulking up (he didn't get a chance, Trunks killed him too fast). So either way, it's just Trunks taking out someone weaker than 100% Freeza, yet close enough that one-shotting him is impressive.

I'm not just talking about when Trunks kills him, but the whole scene. Cold coming to Earth on his own wouldn't have nearly the same impact as Freeza surviving and coming back powered up and with back up. Trunks killing Freeza without letting him power up shows us as a character trait that wouldn't be brought across as well without Freeza actually being there.

edited 9th Feb '14 6:56:57 PM by Saiga

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4840: Feb 9th 2014 at 6:57:22 PM

[up][up]1. He did stand a chance. A slim one, but it was there.

2. That's never stated, actually.

3. That's the point. Killing Cold would have the same effect.

[up][up][up][up] Slump Arale or DB Arale?

[up][up][up] Only Slump Arale did that.

EDIT: Okay, this is sort of a response to Tobias' rants on DBZ never showing the power of its characters, or everyone looking weaker after Namek, or whatever. It seems that he likes to launch into long rants about that which usually don't say much. I'll get into the anime and interviews if you want, which paint a different picture, but I think the manga both showed and stated a fairly logical power progression:

Pilaf arc: Goku is super humanly strong, but still weak enough that bullets can hurt him and missiles can kill him. The absolute strongest being known is a mountain buster.

Red Ribbon arc: Goku is much stronger than in the previous arc, and much faster to boot, but missiles can still kill him until the very end. Tao shows off some pretty impressive feats, like throwing a pillar 2,300 kilometers and riding it.

21st Budokai: the most notable event here is FP Roshi destroying the goddamned moon... but DB's moon appears to be much smaller than ours, and the effects of the destruction aren't even felt. So not sure how to qualify this one, especially since FP Roshi is far stronger than anything else in this arc.

22nd Budokai: simple tournament. Not a lot of room for massive destruction feats or statements.

King Piccolo: things start getting big. King Piccolo easily destroys an entire large city with a single ki blast. Characters are city busters.

23rd Budokai: Piccolo Jr. destroys an even larger city with seemingly more ease than King Piccolo did. Characters are casual city busters.

Saiyan arc: things get bigger. Nappa casually wipes out most of a continent. Vegeta states that his Galick Gun has enough power to destroy the Earth- however, in the context of the manga, this can be interpreted as merely turning the Earth into a lifeless husk rather than blowing the whole thing up outright. Power scaling is still logical. Characters are at the most moon busters.

Freeza arc: 1st form Freeza is stated to have destroyed Planet Vegeta- however, we don't know if he did so under his own power, and Planet Vegeta is implied to be really small. More relevantly, post-zenkai Vegeta is stated by Piccolo to have enough power to outright reduce the planet Namek (stated to be Earth-sized) to dust with his Galick Gun. 3% Freeza casually deflects it.

Later, base Freeza actually does destroy a planet... by initiating a chain reaction within the planet's core. However, Goku and Freeza both agree that he could easily just reduce the planet to dust with one ki blast, and the planet exploding in his face with next to no ki left doesn't even phase him. Characters have become casual planet busters.

Cell arc: not a lot of opportunities for big destruction. We get numerous statements reaffirming that these characters can casually destroy planets. We also get an explanation for why the planets aren't destroyed instantly by the fights: everyone is able to concentrate their ki into a very small area, just with extremely high power in that area.

Buu arc: things escalate again. More statements about everyone being able to casually destroy planets, from Dabra and Goku. We have Piccolo stating that a single blast from Super Buu would have wiped out the entire Earth without a trace if it had hit the Earth, which requires a fuckton of power. Most importantly, we have Pure Buu's planet buster. This shows how far everyone has come. According to these calculations, that casual ki blast from one of the weakest forms of Buu had enough power to destroy the Earth over four hundred and sixteen THOUSAND times over. Remember when destroying it just once was impressive? When Freeza was around?

[up] I was counting major individuals there. Are you really counting Piccolo vs Babidi as a fight? If so, you should probably also count Trunks vs Cold's henchmen... there was less of a gap there. So he still beats out Piccolo. Same with Pintar. Pintar isn't even super human. Fair point about Gohan, but if you're counting individuals, then Trunks still killed all those Freeza soldiers (also, there were seven Cell Juniors).

I guess that's just a difference in our opinions then. I think he got way too much to do in general. I would have at least cut out his defeats of Freeza and Cell, and have him get pounded by the Cell Junior rather than fight evenly.

Yeah, Drum is impressive because even though he's not as strong as Old Piccolo, he's still strong enough to beat on someone equal to Goku. Meaning he's in old Piccolo's league. Same with Cold; he isn't as strong as Freeza, but he's still strong enough to beat on any power on the good guys' side before SS Goku with ease. Ten defeating the Saibaman is treated as impressive by Nappa, so is Piccolo doing so. Nappa's all like, these guys rival Raditz, how the hell can these Earthlings beat them?

Why is "eight Cell Juniors" blue-linked to that trope?

I disagree. As far as anyone knew, Goku was gone. No one else could even come close to standing up to a Freeza-level character. Trunks killing him would still be ridiculously impressive.

edited 9th Feb '14 10:26:44 PM by sockpuppet1

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4841: Feb 9th 2014 at 6:58:41 PM

Slump Arale or DB Arale?

Only Slump Arale did that.

...Okay, this is precisely the sort of pointless pedantry I personally want not a damn thing to do with.

edited 9th Feb '14 7:04:31 PM by unnoun

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#4842: Feb 9th 2014 at 7:00:56 PM

I thought it was supposed to be the same Arale.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4843: Feb 9th 2014 at 7:02:34 PM

It was. That was the point. That's what a crossover is for.

edited 9th Feb '14 7:03:23 PM by unnoun

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4844: Feb 9th 2014 at 7:05:49 PM

[up][up] No, they're completely different. Slump Arale works on entirely different physical rules in her universe. For example, in Arale's universe, Earth has a continental lay-out similar to ours, and the sun is only a few times bigger than Earth. In the DB Universe, the continents look like this and the sun is properly sized.

edited 9th Feb '14 7:09:34 PM by sockpuppet1

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4845: Feb 9th 2014 at 7:05:53 PM

It wasn't a crossover, it was a cameo. And a lot of things weren't kept consistent in that cameo so that's a valid question.

We don't know if it's the same Arale or what the point was because such a thing has never been said anywhere.

edited 9th Feb '14 7:06:22 PM by Saiga

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4846: Feb 9th 2014 at 7:08:51 PM

The whole encounter is just a gag cameo. It's like trying to argue that Family Guy and Reeves Superman take place in the same universe because of that one episode where Lois learns kung-fu and beats up the Kryptonians.

But for what it's worth, the Daizenshuu says that DB Arale can crack a planet in half anyway.

edited 9th Feb '14 7:09:58 PM by sockpuppet1

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4847: Feb 9th 2014 at 7:10:57 PM

She had her bottle thingy! There was a shonen jump thingy where Toriyama said she was stronger than Goku!

Yes it was a gag cameo but it also involved Goku actually visiting Penguin Village!

edited 9th Feb '14 7:12:00 PM by unnoun

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4848: Feb 9th 2014 at 7:13:17 PM

I doubt he said that. Even if he did, it wouldn't mean much, since even Raditz is stronger than Goku at this point.

Even if Toriyama came out and said Slump and DB take place in the same universe (which he never did btw), I wouldn't believe it. There's too many contradictions in... everything. The two universes have different laws of physics, and the layout of the continents of Earth and the planets of the solar system are repeatedly shown to be different.

A Penguin Village that is explicitly not at the same location it is in Dr. Slump.

Anyway, to answer the question. Logically, DB Arale is significantly weaker than King Piccolo. But the Daizenshuu basically says she's not. If you go with that, you can assume she just wasn't paying attention when King Piccolo took over the planet, and is actually around second form Freeza. That'd be plenty; cracking a planet in half with a punch is impressive, but nowhere near as impressive as generating enough power to destroy the same planet over 416,000 times over in your fingertips (Pure Buu), or tanking dozens of blasts each with far more power than even that without suffering any damage at all (Super Buu).

edited 9th Feb '14 7:18:42 PM by sockpuppet1

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#4849: Feb 9th 2014 at 9:03:09 PM

Frieza's character type deserves the most inglorious of ends, and I'd say his was pretty inglorious. He went out without a shred of dignity, as villains like him are supposed to. Trunks utterly shitstomping him was incredibly satisfying.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4850: Feb 9th 2014 at 10:32:22 PM

GT doesn't count so we can probably just ignore what the Kai said although it would explain the ape like form in this picture if Bardock became a golden Oozaru.

Late, but I don't know why you wouldn't 'count' GT if you count Episode of Bardock and Battle of Gods.


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