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sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4776: Feb 6th 2014 at 4:36:23 PM

Buutenks does use the SBC in the Tenkaichi games. In the manga, the only techniques he used from his absorbptions were the Kamehameha and those energy rings, both from Gotenks (and the Kamikaze Ghosts when he was Buuhan). Which is a shame. I liked the filler version of the Buutenks fight, and one of the reasons is because he uses more techniques.

edited 6th Feb '14 4:39:47 PM by sockpuppet1

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#4777: Feb 6th 2014 at 4:38:29 PM

So...what's the connection between Pikkon and Piccolo? It seems like in the games, everyone with a connection to Piccolo goes "Whu? Piccolo?" And even Piccolo says "Hmm. Let's see what he's got."

My various fanfics.
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4778: Feb 6th 2014 at 4:39:14 PM

Pikkon is a clear Piccolo Expy. That's the only real connection.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#4779: Feb 6th 2014 at 4:42:38 PM

[up][up][up]

It makes sense when you think about it.

Or not. Piccolo's techniques are kinda weak by that point in the series.

He hit Gohan dead on with the Special Beam Canon, and didn't even pier the latter's body, which is the whole point of the technique.

Then again, I'd say that the Destructo disk / Kienzan surpasses the canon as a good Assassination technique.

One Strip! One Strip!
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4780: Feb 6th 2014 at 4:44:56 PM

His filler Kamikaze Ghost didn't splatter Gohan, either. Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Neither does Gohan surviving that piercing beam. That attack should have gone right through Gohan even if there was no amplification behind it at all, and it was simply Buu's regular power.

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#4781: Feb 6th 2014 at 4:58:56 PM

Do you think Jaco sees Goku as an unseen rival to himself? It'd be neat if DBH ever uses an event to accommodate that.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4782: Feb 6th 2014 at 5:05:43 PM

Pikkon is in the games because he was in movie 12. That's seriously the justification they give. He's a "movie" character. You'd think that if they use his filler techniques (movie 12 doesn't have him use the moves he has in the games) that'd be enough justification for Super Kaio-ken but it's the excuse Spike use to exclude moves like that (and the Spice Boys).

edit: The Kamehameha may not be from Gotenks. He should have already known it prior to absorbing Gotenks, since Fat Boo knew it. Granted, he only uses it after absorbing Gotenks, so that might be some of Gotenks' influence on him making him more inclined to use the technique.

edited 6th Feb '14 5:07:44 PM by Saiga

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4783: Feb 6th 2014 at 5:06:49 PM

He was in Movie 11 also.

[up] I think that since Toriyama only had him use it after absorbing Gotenks, we're meant to think that's where it came from. Prior to this, I don't think Super Buu actually uses any special ki techniques, except maybe that big mouth blast. That might have been amplified. Oh, and his suicide explosion. Here's all the techniques he used prior to absorbing people in the manga:

-Dangerous Liquid Bomb

-Human Extinction Attack

-Candy Beam

-Mouth Blast

-Final Explosion

-Absorption

And after that, he uses:

-Kamehameha

-Super Galactic Donuts

-Kamikaze Ghosts

All of which are used by Gotenks. I guess Piccolo and Gohan just didn't have techniques good enough to steal.

I don't think it had anything to do with inclination. Didn't Buu specifically mention he was going for Death by Irony?

edited 6th Feb '14 5:39:35 PM by sockpuppet1

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#4784: Feb 6th 2014 at 10:49:58 PM

How-to gameplay of Goku in J-Stars came out. It looks like he plays like he did in Tenkaichi, which isn't surprising since Spike Chunsoft is the one making the game.

edited 6th Feb '14 10:50:16 PM by Rinsankajugin

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#4785: Feb 8th 2014 at 7:41:38 AM

Unnoun, stop doing that thing you do. It's extremely annoying.

I love Power Levels.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#4786: Feb 8th 2014 at 9:08:19 AM

I, on the other hand, fully agree with Unnoun.

All this discussion of power levels being necessary to prevent characters from ganging up leads me to ponder something: the series really did kind of lose its love of 1-on-many fights after Namek, didn't it?

Raditz was killed by a combined effort from Goku, Gohan, and Piccolo. Gohan, Piccolo, and Krillin fought together to survive Nappa - with mixed results - while Vegeta was defeated by a team effort by Goku, Gohan, Krillin, and even Yajirobe, steadily wearing him down to overcome his power level. Most of Namek was Vegeta or Goku overpowering folks, but most of the battle with Frieza was Krillin, Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo tag-teaming him in order to keep up with his ever-increasing transformations, which is how they survived long enough for Goku to get there. Having everyone dogpile an enemy was a fair and effective strategy until the Super Saiyan transformation entered the picture; then the Android Saga rolled around and the non-alien characters became spectators, showing up to battles for no reason because their fighting skills are worthless.

Abridged Gero frustratedly demands of Krillin, "WHY IS HE EVEN HERE?!" and that's a fair point. Krillin continues pretending to be relevant all the way up through the assault on Babidi's ship, when he and Piccolo fly out with the Saiyans for no reason at all because Power Levels have completely obsoleted their fighting skills.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#4787: Feb 8th 2014 at 9:20:03 AM

Eh, I've heard all the arguments.

I'm mostly with Unnoun as well, about how escalating Power Levels screwed over the human characters. I really wish Toriyama had found a way to keep them relevant, as watching them rush into combat just to get beat down is repetitive.

I've read Saiga's argument of how giving everyone a fight screws up the pacing as well (in regards to Bleach), and while I can see where he is coming from, it kinda stems more from:

1) Having so many characters in the first place

2) Insisting on giving everyone of them a fight

3) Ass pulling ways for them to win.

As Tobias has pointed out, ganging up on enemies used to be a valid method of defeating powerful opponents. Instead of constantly inflating the power levels, Toriyama should have allowed the humans, and Piccolo to come up with clever strategies to take them down using their numbers.

Hell, I've pointed out the merits of the Solar Flare / Destructo Disk combo. Hell, what if Tien taught the others his Kikousho, and they did a massive combined one. If Tien can learn to do multiple ones without totally killing himself, so can the others.

Or maybe if Piccolo shared the theories behind his Special Beam Canon as well. We never see it get used after the fight with Raditz, but a focused piercing attack is possibly more deadly than the wider spread shots we usually see (again, what if they combined it for extra oomph).

I know it's been said that the Kaiouken wouldn't do much for making them stronger, and on their own, I agree, but if all of them worked as a team, covering weaknesses, we could get more creative fights....

I think. I may not be stating my point well enough.

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RedM Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
#4788: Feb 8th 2014 at 9:39:28 AM

[up]You're right about the teaming up thing. I don't see why "stand and gape" was the MO for these guys.

You know, I started thinking about how American comics would be different if they handle fights like shonen manga. Then I pictured the Avengers fighting Ultron, who then spits out little Ultron Jrs so that everyone gets a little fight. That was as far as I got.

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sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4789: Feb 8th 2014 at 11:49:04 AM

[up][up]

Ganging up was never valid, unless the power levels were decently close together. After the introduction of power levels, it starts to how have a little validity. In fact, an exhausted and injured Piccolo at the 23rd Budokai outright laughed at the notion that team-ups were worth shit, and the whole supporting cast agreed with him and just sat down as he blasted a hole in Goku's chest and stomped on it, while complaining about how completely incapable they were of providing any kind of assistance.

One of the reasons I like the movies is that they have teamwork being more frequently used and effective (especially helps for the villains' henchmen), and don't let it violate basic pre-established logic. Except in one case, Bojack's henchmen vs Gohan. A lot of good team battles in the movies; Sansho, Ginger, and Nicky vs Piccolo, Goku and Piccolo vs Garlic Jr, Piccolo and Goku vs Slug, Goku and Vegeta vs Metal Cooler, etc.

That combo wouldn't work, because the Kienzan is painfully slow and loud, to the point where numerous characters have managed to dodge it without looking at it. Its so slow that, after Krillin threw one, Vegeta had time to look at it, deduce its properties, and yell at Nappa to dodge it, which he proceeded to do. Even if they didn't, it doesn't just magically cut through everything. Krillin, for example, couldn't just take out Super Vegetto with it. If he tried it on, say, final form Freeza, or one of the androids, or Majin Buu, it would probably just break without causing them any harm. It not doing that really violates how the ability is supposed to work. If it did cut through them, I'd go from liking that move to hating it, since it goes from clever manipulation of a relatively small ki to a magical bullshit move.

Working as a team wouldn't work, unless they're relatively close in power to their opponents, which they wouldn't be. It hasn't worked since Dragon Ball.

[up][up][up] What are you even trying to say? You're bringing up the only sections of the story with power levels and trying to say that they made teamwork useless, then providing your own counterexamples?

The Freeza fight involved next to no tag-teaming. First Vegeta fights him alone, then everyone tries to fight him together only for him to No-Sell everything, then Piccolo fights him alone (while the other three gape in awe and state that they can't do anything), then Gohan fights him alone, then Vegeta fights him alone (while the other three state they're too fast to even see), then finally Goku arrives... and fights him alone some more (barring a very brief intervention by Piccolo in the second third of the fight, and even that mostly just consists of him getting tortured). At one point in the Goku vs Freeza battle, Piccolo sees that he feels like he's being physically crushed sensing them, because they're just that much stronger, and plainly states none of them can do anything.

No, it wasn't. It was only effective on rare occasions, except throughout the Saiyan arc (which introduced power levels), where all three were successfully fought with teamwork. The only one who wasn't beaten by it was Nappa, and he still would have been beaten by it if his own teammate, Vegeta, hadn't helped him (I would have liked to see him beaten by teamwork to, because he kind of disrupts the flow). Teamwork being ineffective again after Namek wasn't a sign of characters losing their relevance, it was just confirmation that the bad guys being fought with teamwork was basically the Saiyan arc's 'gimmick' to separate its fights from the other arcs. Just like how the Buu arc's gimmick is wacky abilities, including magical ones.

Okay, I have to ask: what does them being non-human have to do with anything? Shouldn't the more pressing matter be who's interesting and who's not? Who has a better place in the plot? Yamcha and Ten are incredibly bland, and despite my like of him so is Yajirobe. Chiaotzu is not worth a mention. Krillin was okay, but he already had a huge role to play in the last two arcs, even if I think he could have been treated better there (let him have ONE non-Saibaman victory by himself; Vegeta had at least five, can't he spare one for Krillin?).

Now I'm genuinely curious: do you even know what Power Levels are? Are we discussing the same thing when we use that term? If you just define power level as "how strong anyone is compared to anyone else", then that's not what the term means. But assuming it is, you're asking for a completely different series if you don't want some guys to be way stronger than some other guys.

[up] "Stand and gape" has always been the MO. Justifiably so, because the villains really were just that much stronger.

EDIT: Even post-Namek, power really didn't dominate everything. There's a lot of interesting battles there where skill, tactics, and special abilities play in, especially in the Buu arc. The beginning of the Cell arc with the first two androids is actually a really good example.

edited 8th Feb '14 1:02:56 PM by sockpuppet1

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#4790: Feb 8th 2014 at 12:53:20 PM

-

Wow, the thread boomed in my absence.

edited 8th Feb '14 12:58:18 PM by FOFD

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#4791: Feb 8th 2014 at 1:30:53 PM

[up][up]

What I'm saying is, if they can't match the villains in terms of Power Levels (and we know full well they can't) then try and find another way. Why even have them there if there's nothing they can do.

You don't think it's a little frustrating to have all these characters just standing around watching as the hero gets stomped, and does the stomping. Yes, they are weaker, but I feel it's the author's responsibility to find a way to keep these characters relevant if they can't let them stay at the same or similar power levels as the hero.

I mean, which do we really want:

1) To see the other characters rush into battle, and get instantly creamed EVERY. FUCKING. TIME.

2) Seeing them do absolutely nothing because they're so weak that their attempt at a contribution wouldn't make any difference at all.

3) Or seeing them find a way to overcome a superior foe through clever tactics, unique techniques, and strength of numbers.

Now, this doesn't need to happen all the time mind you. Saiga isn't here, but his thoughts that giving everyone a fight slows down the pace might not be wrong, but changing things up every now and again, instead of letting only a select group (that in some manga includes only the hero and rival, and that's on a good day) can keep things fresh and interesting. In fact, I'd argue that by giving the side characters a chance to shine, you can genuinely create tension by keeping us guessing when they fight certain foes on whether they'll succeed or not rather than everyone groaning because you know they'll just lose horribly.

That combo wouldn't work, because the Kienzan is painfully slow and loud, to the point where numerous characters have managed to dodge it without looking at it. Its so slow that, after Krillin threw one, Vegeta had time to look at it, deduce its properties, and yell at Nappa to dodge it, which he proceeded to do.

So then he just practices and makes it faster. Why can't he improve his technique if it's still flawed. Plus is it that the move is slow, or that Vegeta is just quick on the uptake? I mean, look at how Frieza improved on it by making it able to follow people. All Krillin has to do is launch it, let someone dodge it, then bring it around while their back is turned and boon, Half and Half.

Even if they didn't, it doesn't just magically cut through everything. Krillin, for example, couldn't just take out Super Vegetto with it.

Fair enough, though, that's really more because Super Vegetto knows what the move does, and would have the sense to avoid it.

If he tried it on, say, final form Freeza, or one of the androids, or Majin Buu, it would probably just break without causing them any harm.

See, being that he never used it on stronger guys like that, I don't know why people say that. Though I admit that there is no evidence in the Manga that it would break, until Toriyama writes a story where such a thing happens, I'm going to assume it will work.

It not doing that really violates how the ability is supposed to work. If it did cut through them, I'd go from liking that move to hating it, since it goes from clever manipulation of a relatively small ki to a magical bullshit move.

Doesn't need to work all the time. As you said, it can be dodged, it might be block able if the opponent is strong enough, and maybe other things as well. There are ways to evade, just as I be there are ways to make it more effective.

I'm talking about variety here. Keeping us guessing. I love this series, and even with many of it's flaws, I love some of the battles. Hell, two of my favourite moments are when Vegetto picks up Super Buu's huge energy ball and punts it like a football, and Goku killing Buu with the Spirit bomb (meaning that the damned move finally works for the first time in the series) even though be required Gohan to be tossed under the bus so Goku could save the day again.

There's so much that can be done.

[up] That happens sometimes. I've known threads to swell when I leave for a few minutes.

edited 8th Feb '14 1:31:33 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4792: Feb 8th 2014 at 1:47:18 PM

It's not the author's responsibility to give them anything. If they fulfill their role in the story, why keep them around? Ten's character arc was done, and now he was bland and pointless. Same with Yamcha. Demoting them to extras was the right move.

Not every time.

Yes, actually, because it makes the villains more threatening and solves the "why don't they team up?" plot hole.

They do that. But they can't do it all the time. I'd like to have seen it more, but not if it marginalizes the strength of the villains. There's a reason the one on one fights are often selected as the best fights in the series, and why so many entries in our very own wiki's Awesome Moments page are full on Curb Stomp Battles.

If those are his thoughts, I agree with him. Don't pretend a character is relevant when they're not. I hate when the story pussy-foots around and introduces pointless characters just to give minor characters victories. This happened ALL the time in the Namek arc. Yay, Vegeta killed three nobodies. Who the hell cares? Freeza is literally thousands of times stronger than them, killing them means crap.

Toriyama changes up the formula far more times than people give him credit for. For example, for all the complaints about Goku doing everything, he doesn't win a single fight in the Cell or Buu arcs (except Yakon).

He can't just make it faster. Either he has to get stronger or invent a new technique. Vegeta wasn't just fast; Freeza also dodged it without seeing it. It being a homing attack didn't help a whole lot, since it was still SLOW, so the stronger-than-Freeza Goku could still dodge it.

No, its because Super Vegetto is too strong.

People say it because that's how ki works. The Kienzan is effective because it concentrates a lot of ki into a small point, like Piccolo's SBC. It can't just magically cut through anything. Why assume it'll work? That makes absolutely no sense. It's like if I assumed that Piccolo's SBC will ALWAYS drill through anything, or that Vegeta's Big Bang Attack will ALWAYS blow anything up.

I don't think you understand. I like the Kienzan because it's a clever application of ki. What you're proposing is just to make it a magical cut-through-anything-regardless-of-power wonder move, which makes it seem less like a clever technique and more like an Ass Pull.

edited 8th Feb '14 1:50:04 PM by sockpuppet1

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#4793: Feb 8th 2014 at 1:51:53 PM

[up]

Ok. I see your point. I'll bow out of this one.

And I also like the Kienzan for the same reason.

Well then, since Power Level discussions always cover the same ground anyway, how about a new topic.

.....Somebody come up with a new topic.

One Strip! One Strip!
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4794: Feb 8th 2014 at 1:57:17 PM

Character heights?

edited 8th Feb '14 1:58:49 PM by sockpuppet1

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#4795: Feb 8th 2014 at 1:57:33 PM

What if there was a Dragon Ball game that let you customize your transformation path? IE:

  • Goku - Kaio-Ken - Kaio-Ken x20
  • Goku - Super Saiyan - Super Saiyan 2 - Super Saiyan 3 - Super Saiyan God
  • Goku - Super Saiyan - Ascended Super Saiyan - Ultra Super Saiyan
  • Goku - Super Saiyan - Super Kaio-Ken
  • Goku - Vegito - Super Vegito
  • Goku - Gogeta - Super Saiyan 3 Gogeta
  • Goku - Veku
  • Goku - Gokule

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#4796: Feb 8th 2014 at 2:12:50 PM

Piccolo is TALL.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4797: Feb 8th 2014 at 2:14:00 PM

Why would Super Saiyan God follow off of Super Saiyan 3? They're completely unrelated. Included EU material (BOG, Movie 4, GT), the transformation branches seem to go like this:

Base —> False Super Saiyan —> Super Saiyan Grade I —> Super Saiyan Grade 2 —> Super Saiyan Grade 3

Base —> Mastered Super Saiyan —> Super Saiyan 2 —-> Super Saiyan 3

Base —> Oozaru —-> Golden Oozaru —> Super Saiyan 4

Base —> Super Saiyan God

[up] Official height is 7'4. That's probably for the Buu arc, because he doesn't look that tall in the previous ones. In the Buu arc, you'll notice that the kids come up to Super Buu's kneecaps and the average height 5'10 Gohan is only at his stomach, while Piccolo is at his chin.

edited 8th Feb '14 2:18:38 PM by sockpuppet1

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#4798: Feb 8th 2014 at 2:14:12 PM

Wait, why is Gotenks taller than Goten and Trunks?

edited 8th Feb '14 2:14:25 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4799: Feb 8th 2014 at 2:15:15 PM

I dunno. Fusion makes you taller? Vegetto appeared to be taller than Goku and Vegeta as well.

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#4800: Feb 8th 2014 at 2:15:37 PM

Eh, I was leaving GT Goku to have Super Saiyan 4 and Z Goku to have Super Saiyan God. Z Goku with Super Saiyan 4 irks me for some reason.


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