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sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4751: Feb 6th 2014 at 11:16:41 AM

But 16's punch couldn't even make Cell take a step back, so obviously an attack that can push him is stronger than 16's punch, which is enough to kill Kamiccolo. Obviously.

There has to be an explanation, though. In this case, an attack that couldn't even budge Nappa (a little over twice as strong as Ten at the time) can now hold down Semi-Cell (over 300 times as strong as Ten). That's not being intelligent, that's just an ability randomly changing attributes to suit the plot.

An actual example of a weaker power being used in a smart way would be Krillin's Kienzan. Even though Krillin himself is weak, the fact that the Kienzan is sharpened into a thin edge rather than spreading its energy out over a whole human-sized space lets it cut through fighters at least a few times stronger than him. Sure, Nappa may have had a power level of 4,000 while Krillin was 1,770. But a small spot on Nappa's face alone would only have a fraction of that, while the Kienzan would retain all of its power in that exact point, letting it cut through Nappa's ki defenses, and therefore, his flesh.

Actually, thinking about it, Mr. Satan screwed everyone by befriending Fat Buu. If he had never done that, Fat Buu would never have gone into a righteous rage, Super Buu never would have been formed, and SS Gotenks would just kill fatty.

It didn't "degenerate" into anything. Power has always been the most important thing, Roshi outright says it in the second arc of Dragon Ball. If anything, skill and tactics have become (marginally) more important since Daimao died. That's how the series has always worked, and how it always will work. If you're close enough to your opponent, skill matters. However, if your opponent is too much stronger, all the skill in the world means shit. And that just makes sense, because everyone in this series has to AT LEAST be so much stronger than everyone who is not fighting them that they wouldn't even be effected by their attacks, otherwise you run into the "why don't they just team up?" plot hole.

edited 6th Feb '14 11:27:09 AM by sockpuppet1

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#4752: Feb 6th 2014 at 11:20:30 AM

Tien was a LOT stronger and healthier when he sneak-attacked Cell than when he attacked Nappa. Tien was also hitting Cell with a constant barrage of attacks, rather than just the one shot. And he had both arms.

My various fanfics.
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4753: Feb 6th 2014 at 11:21:13 AM

He was stronger than himself in the Saiyan arc in terms of pure numbers, not in proportion to his opponent, which is what truly matters.

Even when he had one arm, Piccolo was shocked Nappa tanked it, so whatever power it put out must have been above Ten's regular battle power at least. Which means it would be far closer to Nappa than his later Kikohos were to Semi-Cell. Yet despite being sneak attacked, Nappa didn't move an inch.

edited 6th Feb '14 11:26:28 AM by sockpuppet1

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4754: Feb 6th 2014 at 11:28:02 AM

I do really like the Kienzan as a technique. Funny how the series has two main villains that can fucking regenerate.

Tien only hit Nappa one time. Not a continuous series of blasts. And there was the whole "dust cloud so nobody can tell if it worked nevermind that these people can sense life forces, why the fuck aren't they using it" thing the series does.

Actually, I do kinda like the fight against Raditz. They used an attack to drill him using teamwork, and our main hero died and his son was kidnapped by his worst enemy. There's at least the possibility of some actual narrative weight there.

Hell, he could meet up with his brother in the afterlife. He has a brother. We went through an entire series and never knew that. We ever going to do anything with it? No? Just going to kill him off? No spiritual quest about family or racial identity or anything?

Actually, thinking about it, Mr. Satan screwed everyone by befriending Fat Buu. If he had never done that, Fat Buu would never have gone into a righteous rage, Super Buu never would have been formed, and SS Gotenks would just kill fatty.

This series is a long run of bullshit escalations that end up being completely pointless if our definition of pointlessness involves things lasting over any period of time. Oh hi androids. Oh wait, wrong androids, lol dumb kid from the future. Oh wait another thing that isn't an android but sorta is that wants to eat the androids.

...There's a reason we called it "are they still on Namek" for a while.

It didn't "degenerate" into anything. Power has always been the most important thing, Roshi outright says it in the second arc of Dragon Ball. If anything, skill and tactics have become (marginally) more important.

I am well aware. It's a failing of the series from the start. But when the series started it was still just a silly series with jokes about women's underwear and people with bad puns for names.

edited 6th Feb '14 11:30:39 AM by unnoun

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#4755: Feb 6th 2014 at 11:29:16 AM

@Why Tien couldn't stop Nappa but stopped Cell: The only explanation I have is that the power of the technique doesn't increase linearly with Tien's strength. Its power could be quadratic but nothing indicates that.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#4756: Feb 6th 2014 at 11:29:20 AM

It wasn't really a sneak attack. Nappa was looking right at Tien, watching him scream bloody murder and shoot a laser at him. If Nappa was surprised by anything, it was the size of the Tri-Beam. With Cell, Tien went "Hey, douchebag, up here!" Cell turns around, and immediately gets shot.

I'm not saying the logic is perfect. I just like the scene.

My various fanfics.
RedM Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
#4757: Feb 6th 2014 at 11:38:35 AM

Well, it didn't really hurt Cell at all, just slowed him down. As soon as Tenshinhan passes out, Cell immediately just gets out, and it's only Goku 'porting in to pick them up that saves Piccolo and Ten.

The very best, like no one ever was. Check out my Spider-Man fanfic here! [1]
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4758: Feb 6th 2014 at 11:39:46 AM

Power has always been the most important thing, Roshi outright says it in the second arc of Dragon Ball. If anything, skill and tactics have become (marginally) more important since Daimao died. That's how the series has always worked, and how it always will work.

It's not all that good a series when it works like that. The series has always been at its best when it is able to get beyond "this person can beat up this person because they have a stronger thingy and no other reason" because there are glimmers of quality that the manga and even some aspects of the anime, filler, and movies and games are able to do outside of that paradigm described. I like Dragon Ball, but that has little to do with its quality in terms of plotting or writing. And it has nothing to do with fucking power levels.

And the more time I spend around fans of Dragon Ball the more I rather hate it. Which is a shame because Akira Toriyama's art style is one of my favorites. Love Chrono Trigger, love some of the Dragon Quest games.

And he's certainly been an inspiration to dozens of other artists because, for better or worse, Dragon Ball was ridiculously successful. And it deserves it, because it is a good series.

What pisses me off is when people take it so seriously, and worse, get fixated on the single least interesting aspect to talk about. With that single least interesting aspect being power levels. Hate.

Like, nothing about the shapeshifting school Oolong and Puar went to? Did that school close down? Is it still open? What if one of the other fighters went there or sent their kids there? Wouldn't that be fun maybe? Ooh, what if Chi-Chi tried sending Gohan there during the 7 years after the Cell Games, could we make a good gag manga out of that?

Who did Goku actually get to kiss Old Kai? Mai maybe? Arale?

edited 6th Feb '14 11:42:32 AM by unnoun

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4759: Feb 6th 2014 at 11:43:11 AM

@Son and Kotsya: to be clear, there actually IS an official explanation for why he was able to do that... sorta. The guidebooks explain that it's a Kiai-type attack, which means that it can push things without necessarily damaging them. But the main point was that the guidebook writers shouldn't have to fill in Toriyama's mistakes. And either way, it comes off as an Ass Pull.

[up][up][up][up][up]That dust cloud thing is extremely exaggerated and only happens three or four times in the manga, because characters were pre-occupied with something else (in the case of Nappa, Ten's death). The anime abuses it.

He only hit Nappa once, but even when he only hit Cell once, Cell was floored. Nappa wasn't.

He has the spiritual quest in the Namek arc. And I like that Raditz never came back. It emphasized that the only thing linking him and Goku was blood, and in the end they may as well have not even been related on account of being such different people.

Okay, so you just randomly launched into complaints about an unrelated arc. Cool.

Yeah, because the anime filler stretched it out tremendously.

It being a failing is highly subjective. Considering how many Curb-Stomp Battle type fights are thought of as Awesome Moments, and how popular the series is in general, you're probably in the minority. And you saying it "degenerated" directly implies it wasn't like that before. The fights with Raditz, Nappa, and Vegeta, the first three villains in Z (besides the Saibamen), all involved a large amount of teamwork and skill.

And the dirty jokes and name puns are there from the beginning to the end, and even beyond the Buu arc.

[up] More bitching about power levels. How welcome. Like, seriously dude? You can't simply launch into a rant whenever they're mentioned, they're around for half the manga, strength is always the most important factor, and even 20 years after the end of the Buu arc, Toriyama himself still uses the term battle power (manga name for power level) to refer to the strength of his characters and gives them rough numerical rankings. Strength relations being one of the most important aspects of the series is made clear right there in the first arc, and so is superior strength dominating everything else.

The school gets talked about by no one because it's not interesting and is just mentioned in the first arc, which most people don't care about.

And it wasn't a kiss, it was a grope. And probably no one.

Don't get me wrong, I would like some elaboration an discussion other things in the series, like Freeza's species, Buu's biology/forms, the Nameless Namek's background, and the Demon Realm. But as opposed to that, the fans, both regular and in an official capacity, would rather talk about things that bore me that AREN'T power levels, like Goku, or Bardock, or the saiyans in general.

edited 6th Feb '14 11:52:04 AM by sockpuppet1

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4760: Feb 6th 2014 at 11:50:03 AM

They're around for half the manga, strength is always the most important factor, and even 20 years after the end of the Buu arc, Toriyama himself still uses the term battle power (manga name for power level) to refer to the strength of his characters and gives them rough numerical rankings.

And when half the manga is any good it is in spite of them, not because of them.

And whatever, Toriyama can say or do whatever he wants. I don't think that elevates his work above critique.

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4761: Feb 6th 2014 at 11:51:12 AM

I never said it did. Just that you complaining about power levels (the numerical system for measuring a character's ki) when they're so much as brought up, despite them and strength relations being an extremely important aspect of the series, is incredibly annoying. Or hell, even when they're not brought up. It's total bullshit.

Me- "I don't think it makes any sense for Tenshinhan's attack to do that, considering that much stronger characters couldn't do the same. It annoys me that people keep using this moment to pretend that Ten is stronger than he is."

unnoun- "YEAH WELL FUCK POWER LEVELS"

edited 8th Feb '14 1:48:39 AM by sockpuppet1

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#4762: Feb 6th 2014 at 11:54:11 AM

Am I the only one who's never given a shit about power levels? Like, the whole purpose of power levels in the narrative is to prove that they don't matter.

Vegeta: Look at you, Kakarot! A low-class warrior like yourself could never have a power level great enough to defeat me!

Goku: Kaio-ken! *punch*

Ginyu: Feh. Your power level isn't as impressive as mine, weirdo.

Goku: Kaio-Ken! *Scouters explode*

Frieza: Don't you understand? Your power level could never match the mighty Frieza!

Goku: SUPER SAIYAN! *Punch*

My various fanfics.
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4763: Feb 6th 2014 at 11:58:45 AM

Bad examples, since Vegeta proceeded to kick Goku's ass, Ginyu was actually right about his estimate (he pegged Goku at 85,000; he was only 5,000 off) and would have slaughtered Goku if not for the godly technique that only Goku knows (and no one else could have even known about), and Freeza really was right about being stronger than Goku by far until Goku pulled a transformation out of his ass that hadn't existed in a thousand years.

Power levels are never shown to be unreliable. The guy with the highest number almost always wins. Scouters are, because the heroes can make it look their power levels are low when they actually aren't.

edited 6th Feb '14 12:07:45 PM by sockpuppet1

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#4764: Feb 6th 2014 at 12:55:24 PM

The guy with the highest number always wins, it's just there's ways of increasing that number mid-battle such as Kaioken or transformation.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#4765: Feb 6th 2014 at 12:56:52 PM

I can't remember, but didn't Tien use Kaio-Ken once?

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4766: Feb 6th 2014 at 1:09:28 PM

[up][up] Not always.

Okay. So? If the enemy's max is a lot higher than yours, you pretty much just lose, period. If it's not THAT much higher, and you have a teammate/a special ability/a powerful technique/lots of skills/knowledge of an enemy's particular weakness, you still have a chance.

[up] You may be thinking of the filler in the Namek arc where he has a red aura while fighting Burter and Jeice. Though by that logic, Chi Chi also has kaio-ken.

edited 6th Feb '14 1:25:44 PM by sockpuppet1

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#4767: Feb 6th 2014 at 1:53:40 PM

WHY ISN'T CHICHI IN DBH? Both her kid and adult forms btw.

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4768: Feb 6th 2014 at 1:57:22 PM

She has more fights than Cold (dinosaur, Yamcha, Goku, multiple 23rd Budokai contestants, Ginger, two of Slug's soldiers), and he's in there.

KAIO-KEN!

edited 6th Feb '14 4:12:29 PM by sockpuppet1

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4769: Feb 6th 2014 at 3:55:49 PM

What pisses me off is when people take it so seriously, and worse, get fixated on the single least interesting aspect to talk about. With that single least interesting aspect being power levels. Hate.

Why in the hell do you care about what other people take an interest in? Why would you hate that people are interested in something you're not?

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#4770: Feb 6th 2014 at 4:10:15 PM

Why hasn't Super Kaio-Ken been a playable transformation in a game? I can see lots of potential in that for, being kinda like a berserker-type deal of sorts.

edited 6th Feb '14 4:11:05 PM by Rinsankajugin

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4771: Feb 6th 2014 at 4:13:13 PM

Because it appeared for all of five seconds in a piece of anime filler, and is completely irrelevant to Goku after he gained Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3. The regular kaio-ken x20 should already be a berserker attack as far as game mechanics are concerned; Goku used it all of once in the manga (and twice more in the movies), and it tired him out after one punch and a Kamehameha.

edited 6th Feb '14 4:14:14 PM by sockpuppet1

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#4772: Feb 6th 2014 at 4:14:01 PM

I would like to see Kaioken as an applicable powerup to any of the good-side characters, like a capsule, and have Majin be a capsule for the villains.

My various fanfics.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4773: Feb 6th 2014 at 4:20:47 PM

And also because at least one of the major developers (Spike) has said they don't like using elements from filler arcs, which is the only place Super Kaio-ken appeared. Dimps are probably of the same mind since they have never used anything from filler.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#4774: Feb 6th 2014 at 4:24:45 PM

And yet Pikkon is playable in their games.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
CPFMfan I am serious. This is my serious face. from A Whale's Vagina Since: Aug, 2010
I am serious. This is my serious face.
#4775: Feb 6th 2014 at 4:33:55 PM

Pikkon is apparently cool.

I'm also pretty sure some characters' move sets include moves they only used in filler, like Buu using the Special Beam Cannon. At least, that's what I remember from the games I played.

edited 6th Feb '14 4:34:29 PM by CPFMfan

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