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lgcruz Since: Feb, 2013
#4676: Feb 4th 2014 at 2:51:33 PM

[up][up]Even the Vegetto fight was a weakness of that arc, and not in terms of power level. Where did he even get those techniques? Neither Goku or Gohan hinted at a spirit sword, desintegration with a gesture (instead of an energy blast), or a shield that doesn't stop the absorption but does stop the assimilation, etc.

[up]Actually I would only say that the Buu arc was good pretty much since the tournament was announced to the Buu/Gohan fight, with a small pause within the first two fights inside babidi's ship which just sucked.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#4677: Feb 4th 2014 at 2:55:18 PM

I like to imagine Baba is secretly a massive perv just like her brother. Though I don't think she'd necessarily agree to kiss an old purple guy with a Hitler moustache.

Is Goku suggesting they use Videl (And Gohan yelling at him) just anime filler, or was it in the manga too?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4678: Feb 4th 2014 at 2:59:35 PM

Potara was introduced as Buu(tenks?) and Gohan were fighting. After Gohan gets absorbed, Buu is subject to massive PIS and then turned into a moron (completely OOC) so Vegetto can look cool (I hate Vegetto), Vegetto whips out abilities he shouldn't have and comes up with the dumbest plan ever to stop Buu, Buu is subject to further PIS so Goku and Vegeta don't immediately die to him after they defuse for the dumbest reasons, Buu is nerfed down to Pure Buu so Goku and Vegeta can have a chance, Gohan and Gotenks are taken out with a cheap shot while knocked out, Goku is retconned into being an even bigger asshole, and the only reason the final battle has any tension is because Goku and Vegeta refuse to just bring Gohan and have him one-shot Buu.

But even with these flaws, the Buu Saga narrowly edges out the Saiyan Saga in quality, and stands head and shoulders over Freeza and Cell.

edited 4th Feb '14 3:01:26 PM by sockpuppet1

lgcruz Since: Feb, 2013
#4679: Feb 4th 2014 at 3:05:26 PM

[up]Hey at least Cell was deliberately playing on the heroes stupidity.

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4680: Feb 4th 2014 at 3:08:35 PM

The Cell Saga is decent enough between the fights with 19 and 20 and Cell's fight with 16, but the beginning is awful, and it just drops to straight up crap after Cell absorbs his first android, then hits the pinnacle of shit right after Cell beats Vegeta and Trunks. Then Cell becomes an idiot and a Freeza clone, he keeps powering up, Gohan is sloppily shoved into the spotlight, he starts acting like an OOC pussy, etc.

Similarly, the Freeza Saga is substantially worse once Freeza starts transforming, and it only regains some momentum during the fight between him and Goku. Even then, the Genki Dama portion just felt like filler, and the fight was too long even in the manga.

edited 4th Feb '14 3:15:44 PM by sockpuppet1

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#4681: Feb 4th 2014 at 3:12:39 PM

I will always see Goku vs. Frieza as the best fight in the entire series, simply because of how climatic the final battle was.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4682: Feb 4th 2014 at 3:23:28 PM

Really? I would have thought that having Freeza and Goku both survive then having the former killed by a JRPG knock-off would take away from the sense of climax. More seriously, the fight is just too long, and so little of it actually has them accomplishing anything. In the first part of the fight, neither fighter is even using 5% of their power. From there, it's just Freeza stomping Goku (bar the kaio-ken x20 scene, where Goku gets two hits in) until he turns Super Saiyan, then it's Goku stomping Freeza. Freeza did put up a fight against SS Goku, but compared to the other Big Bads he was still an Anti-Climax Boss through and through.

If I could, I'd merge the base Goku vs 3% Freeza portions with the kaio-ken x10/x20 portions vs 50-70% Freeza ones while shortening them, and completely cut out the Spirit Bomb portion. The SS Goku vs 100% Freeza portion can stay the same.

My favorite fight was by far everybody vs Vegeta. That is how you do a climax.

edited 4th Feb '14 3:24:11 PM by sockpuppet1

lgcruz Since: Feb, 2013
#4683: Feb 4th 2014 at 3:25:40 PM

[up][up][up]Now I would have to disagree. The worst part of the Cell arc was really Imperfect Cell's bad attempts at getting 18 until Vegeta actually let him, the heroes just standing there in the cell games (only justified in like half the time) and imperfect Cell returning even stronger even without 18 inside him. The rest holds up well.

edited 4th Feb '14 3:25:58 PM by lgcruz

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#4684: Feb 4th 2014 at 3:28:29 PM

What's wrong with Cell's power boost after exploding?

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#4685: Feb 4th 2014 at 3:28:41 PM

Looking at the list of characters in Dragon Ball Heroes, I'm rather surprised by some of the omissions. No SSJ 4 Vegeta or Gogeta, only one Bojack and Janemba form, and no Wheelo.

Surprised to see the what-if of Super Android 17 absorbing Android 16 or Cell, though.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
lgcruz Since: Feb, 2013
#4686: Feb 4th 2014 at 3:35:06 PM

[up][up]Nothing wrong with his character, near death epiphany and all that. But why would he return as Perfect Cell if he nearly died as Imperfect Cell? (answer - because he wouldn't be a challenge otherwise)

edited 4th Feb '14 3:35:16 PM by lgcruz

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#4687: Feb 4th 2014 at 3:36:53 PM

I thought it was supposed to be because the zenkai he got increased his energy enough that he could transform without Android 18.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#4688: Feb 4th 2014 at 3:43:29 PM

And didn't he die as Semi-Perfect Cell?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4689: Feb 4th 2014 at 3:45:26 PM

Semi-Perfect Cell is kind of a dumb name.

The explanation was that his body 'remembered' the form. So I guess it created mini clones of 17 and 18, or just abandoned them because that whole idea was stupid and just duplicated their reactors, which is all Cell needed.

[up][up][up]Now I would have to disagree. The worst part of the Cell arc was really Imperfect Cell's bad attempts at getting 18 until Vegeta actually let him, the heroes just standing there in the cell games (only justified in like half the time) and imperfect Cell returning even stronger even without 18 inside him. The rest holds up well.

Massively disagree. I can write a whole essay on the Cell Saga's flaws, including Gohan's Character Derailment, the obvious sloppiness of the shifting heroes and villains, the repeated Deus ex Machina, Vegeta and Krillin being morons, how Piccolo was wasted, the introduction, and the lack of focus in general, but I'll just leave it at that.

edited 4th Feb '14 4:06:02 PM by sockpuppet1

lgcruz Since: Feb, 2013
#4690: Feb 4th 2014 at 4:09:48 PM

[up][up][up]That wouldn't still make him as strong as perfect cell, considering the power discrepancy. And it kinda contradicts him specifically needing 17 and 18 to transform. Homestly he should have turned into a suicide bomb while he was still perfect cell, since the two cyborgs would have been revived anyway like 17 showed.

Poor 16 though. Clearly the dragon didn't find a shred of humanity in him, being an actual android.

[up][up]I'm guessing that Imperfect cell actually applies to his first form huh? I used to call that base form or something.

[up]Since the majority of criticism seems to be the characters, i'll ask if it isn't legitimate for a character flaw (or love at first sight in krillin's case) to hinder common sense. And considering the power levels, Piccolo actually did much more than could be expected of him (more even than in the Frieza Saga despite him being a namekian); It's the human characters that you could criticize for being barely more than props.

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4691: Feb 4th 2014 at 4:16:11 PM

"Love"? He just wanted to fuck her. He was pretty moronic there, and that scene is the main reason I really can't put Krillin on my "favorite characters" list.

Except for Vegeta helping Semi-Cell, I think all of the stupid things they did were out of character. Everyone going along with Goku's insistence not stop the threat before it begins, Piccolo letting Cell escape, Krillin sparing 18, Goku not telling Gohan that he'd have to fight Cell, Gohan refusing to fight Cell even while Cell's kids were beating his friends and father to death... all just awful. And I do think it was bullshit that they just kind of kept Vegeta around after that incident with Cell. He's the reason Goku died and the Cell Games even happened; Gohan should have something to say to him after the arc ends...

My problem with Piccolo is that his fusion with Kami is built up as something great, and it doesn't amount to anything. He has an even fight with 17, gets roflstomped by Cell, and never does anything combat related again except get pounded by a Cell Junior along with everyone else except Vegeta. Oh, and getting one-shotted by Dabra and later Super Buu in the Buu arc. I like that he at least gets to beat Android 20, but he really should have gotten more than that.

What do you mean he did more than he could with his power level? He was quite strong at the beginning of the arc, and after his 1st ROSAT trip he was implied to at least be stronger than 'Super Vegeta', the one that beat up Semi-Cell. He could have helped in the final battle with Cell, blast Cell in the back of the head during the beam struggle. The Freeza Saga shouldn't really be brought up here, because that's by far Piccolo's worst arc. He doesn't do shit there except have an even fight with Freeza, until Freeza pulls I Am Not Left-Handed. Then he spends the rest of the arc getting beaten up. Oh, and save Gohan once or twice.

One thing I loved about the Buu Saga is how it delved into self-parody. The humans are beyond useless there; Super Buu casually snacks on 18, Krillin, Yamcha, and the rest in between two silly fights with Gotenks, and no one seems to care, not even Goku. Remember his reaction the last two times Krillin died? Though if he tried to fight Buu he'd just get bitch-slapped, so I guess it's understandable he wouldn't react the same way. But still. Later, Buu kills Tenshinhan with one kick from his severed legs and no one pays Ten any mind. And Chiaotzu doesn't even get a mention when he's killed when Pure Buu blows up the planet.

edited 4th Feb '14 4:23:41 PM by sockpuppet1

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4692: Feb 4th 2014 at 4:21:57 PM

Honestly I prefer Viz's translation as "Complete" over "Perfect" for Cell (the Japanese can be translated either way) but it's too ingrained in me to switch the terms.

I'd say the Freeza arc started going downhill when Goku touched down on Namek, but I agree with the Android and Boo arcs' downhill points.

[up][up] Hell no. Piccolo was in a worse situation than the humans because he was built up only to amount to nothing. The humans are fine aside from Kuririn's thinking with his dick, and Tenshinhan even got a moment for no real reason. But Piccolo had been hyped up in two arcs and had it go nowhere, although it's not as bad as it was in the Freeza arc (at least he got to beat up Cell in his first fight).

I also really disagree that the Boo arc was a self parody. Neko Majin Z is a self parody, Boo arc is just how fucking wacky Toriyama is.

edited 4th Feb '14 4:24:20 PM by Saiga

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4693: Feb 4th 2014 at 4:27:39 PM

The whole arc just scream self-parody, such as previous villains being treated as jokes ("Oh yeah, even that huge pussy Kaioshin can kill Freeza in one hit"/"Dabra's as strong as Cell? Wow, that's disappointing"), Vegeta complaining that everyone is getting Super Saiyan (including the 7 year olds), Goku whipping out a new over the top and stupid looking form that fails to accomplish anything, Vegeta getting a big dramatic heroic sacrifice that is immediately shrugged off by a fat comical Troll of a villain that later becomes a good guy, Piccolo just straight up telling Buu to kill everyone on Earth because they can always wish them back later, Super Buu seemingly unintentionally mocking Cell with his line "Even if you fuse, you'll be no match for me... but why take the chance? I'll kill you both now!" and lampshading some other elements of the series, et cetera.

edited 4th Feb '14 4:36:52 PM by sockpuppet1

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4694: Feb 4th 2014 at 4:42:31 PM

None of those are really anything but standard Dragon Ball fare. Unthreatening looking villains, senseless sacrifice, villain pragmatism, young prodigies, etc. The heroes making sport of previous villains just show how far they've come, Piccolo telling Boo to kill everyone on Earth is desperation - but also logical given the rate he was doing so before, Super Saiyan 3 accomplishes nothing because its failure is used as a source of drama, Vegeta's comment on Trunks is more of a gag in vein of Roshi's comments on Goku's Kamehameha than straight up parody - Onio of Neko Majin Z is more inline with a parody on Super Saiyan becoming so common.

lgcruz Since: Feb, 2013
#4695: Feb 4th 2014 at 4:50:25 PM

[up][up][up][up]You must dislike love at first sight stories then.

Going along with goku's insistance to no stop the threat before it can materialise, like when he asked to spare Vegeta? Cell also used a solar flare to escape, it wasn't because he asked him... Gohan refusal to fight comes from the fact that this was pretty much the first time he was to fight someone that wasn't in direct response to something evil he did (had never even seen Cell before, remember?). And he did wanted to fight in response to the cell juniors - he needed 16 to give that extra edge because a)it makes the transformation that much more impressive and b) he feared going out of control, and guess what; he did...

[up][up][up]Piccolo had a good fight with Cell, recognized him as threat and took most of the steps to prevent his appearance. He also had a good fight with 17, and even showed that he was a better parent to gohan than goku ever was from understanding his character better to actually having the initiative to interfere with Cell's final attack. Hell the only reason Vegeta's attack from behind was particularly relevant was to conclude his character development, otherwise it would have been Gohan pretty much soloing cell one handed.

On another note, shouldn't we separate the android arc from the Cell arc, the same way we separate the Saiyan arc from the Frieza arc?

edited 4th Feb '14 4:52:49 PM by lgcruz

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4696: Feb 4th 2014 at 4:54:44 PM

I kinda preferred Dragon Ball when it was a gag manga anyway, so self-parody is sorta a definite plus for me, not a minus.

edited 4th Feb '14 5:02:46 PM by unnoun

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4697: Feb 4th 2014 at 5:00:25 PM

You must dislike love at first sight stories then.

Who wouldn't? They're fucking stupid.

Gohan refusal to fight comes from the fact that this was pretty much the first time he was to fight someone that wasn't in direct response to something evil he did (had never even seen Cell before, remember?). And he did wanted to fight in response to the cell juniors - he needed 16 ti give that extra edge because he feared going out of control, and guess what; he did...

No, it's completely inconsistent with how he acts before this point. The Saiyan arc is a turning point for his character, where he learns to stand up for himself and fight, and by the start of the Namek arc he wants to fight and doesn't give up even when the odds are against him and it'd be easier just to stay down. This continues in the Android arc, where he demands to train so he can help out, and in the Boo arc he shows elements of being eager to fight, even purely for fun. The Cell Games are just a nonsensical blip in that character arc. There's also no reason he should fear going out of control, because he never has before - even when he's been enraged, he's never done anything he regretted or didn't want to do.

Piccolo had a good fight with Cell, recognized him as threat and took most of the steps to prevent his appearence. He also had a good fight with 17

Not really making up for the hype. Cell escaped, and then he failed to defeat 17 - for all his hype he was only evenly matched with the Android. And then Cell just completely punks him after his human diet power-up. That's basically it for him.

and even showed that he was a better parent to gohan than goku ever was from understanding his character better

Haha, fuck no. Gohan was completely out of character, and Piccolo should have known better than to think that's how Gohan really was since he should have seen Gohan's determination. Goku sees his son, who is already stronger than him and their only hope against Cell, speak nothing about wanting to become stronger and help out in the fights, and comes to the only logical conclusion: for Gohan to fight Cell. It was a bad idea not to tell Gohan about his plan, but the plan itself was really the only course of action they had. Piccolo was acting like they're still in the Saiyan arc (way to show off your parental skills there, Piccolo).

Piccolo only looks good there because that whole sequence is rather poorly written. And besides, that's got nothing to do with him being built up and not living up to it.

edited 4th Feb '14 5:01:23 PM by Saiga

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4698: Feb 4th 2014 at 5:02:31 PM

[up][up][up]There was no indication he loved her. He wanted to stick his dick in her. That's it. Also, yes, I do. All he'd seen 18 do at this point is beat his friends half to death and try to kill Goku, and all he ever heard about her was that she'd killed billions of people in Trunks' future when left unchecked.

I don't think it's OOC for Krillin, cause he's a bitch. But the others? Definitely. I don't think Gohan would go along with it, for example, because he's not that big of a moron. I also think Tenshinhan was OOC. Seriously dude? You want to fight guys stronger than a Super Saiyan, when you're weaker than the base saiyans, bar maybe Gohan? Even you must recognize you wouldn't be able to fight them.

Cell was only able to escape because Piccolo screwed up his own plan so he could gloat.

He was told Cell killed 600,000 people and still refused to do anything even as Cell was having his friends beaten to death. He also had no problem killing that one Freeza soldier who did much less evil than Cell. Cell was also actively attacking Gohan, and Gohan still refused to fight back.

He didn't go out of control, he just became arrogant. He's never got out of control before with his rage boosts, why would he start now? Furthermore, he didn't even need the transformation to stop the Juniors, he was already way stronger than Goku and co.

Piccolo intervening is filler. In the manga he just sat on his ass. He also gets a terrible deal because he never actually beats anyone as Kamiccolo. The whole build up was for nothing. He at least got to defeat Android 20, but again, he should have gotten more than that. And he should have actually killed 20. Vegeta also becomes irrelevant at pretty much the same time as Kamiccolo (and he has a similar progression: killed a minor android, get beaten by the stronger ones, toy with a weaker form of Cell, get roflstomped when he powers up), but he at least gets to play something of a role in the final battle, and the beginning and of the end of the Buu arc.

The Saiyan and Freeza arcs have nothing to do with each other (in fact, Freeza himself is a humongous and sloppy retcon), whereas the Cell and android arcs are at least marginally linked. If they're separated, I think that the Babidi arc and everything before it should be separated from the rest of the Buu arc.

[up][up][up][up] I know, but no arc just jammed them all together like this. On the sacrifices: Roshi and Chiaotzu sacrificed themselves against powerful, serious, menaces in largely hopeless arcs. The Buu arc was comedic, Vegeta sacrifices himself to a fat troll, and not even his son takes his death seriously, given that he plays around with Buu as Gotenks in a gag fight.

We've had them making sport of previous villains before- but they were never quite so cavalier about it. Remember when Cell surpassed Freeza, i.e. he first appeared? Piccolo was like "oh my me, this guy's even more terrible than Freeza! Isn't that amazing Goku?". With Dabra, it was more like "This guy's as strong as Cell!...lol".

I don't think it's used as drama. At least, not Gotenks' failure. Pretty clear comedic scene. Also, right after transforming in front of Piccolo, Gotenks looks in a mirror and talks about how dumb the form looks.

The desperation is there, but I think that scene really just emphasizes how cheap death is now. As does Buu killing everyone in a minute right after and saying "Okay, done. Now where's the strong fighter?".

There's still how the humans are treated. No one gives a shit about their deaths, and even Buu's severed legs kill Ten in one hit. I think it's the style of the kill that really gets to me.

Villain pragmatism? The villains are mostly morons in Z. Which is why I think a lot of Super Buu's lines and behavior was meant to mock them. Especially the line when he's refusing to let Gohan and Goku fuse. It's like he's considering acting like Cell for a minute there, then just goes "nah, that'd be stupid".

edited 4th Feb '14 5:27:58 PM by sockpuppet1

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#4699: Feb 4th 2014 at 5:12:55 PM

[up] And yet I have absolutely no problems with any of that.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#4700: Feb 4th 2014 at 5:44:34 PM

The humans just saw two super saiyans, one that made quick work of Frieza. I don't think they'd have much of any reason to even imagine that the upcoming villains would be stronger than the overwhelming power Frieza had. Fucking Yamcha showed up to fight the Androids. The "good guys" clearly fucking underestimated the threat there.

Gohan vs Cell. I'm okay with it. Gohan showed no signs of giving a fuck about his power in the past, but at no point in the past (except that split second against Raditz) was he the strongest character in the cast. "With great power comes great responsibility" and shit like that. When you're at the top, it's easy to fuck up and lose yourself (which is pretty much exactly what happens). Against Cell I see him emulating Goku to a degree, and then he snapped when Cell killed an innocent soul right before his eyes.

Piccolo's reaction. I'm also okay with this. Think of a parent seeing his/her son joining the military. You know it's a cool thing and all, but you can't help worrying and wanting to stop them. Piccolo, though he knows how determined and strong Gohan is, can't help but object to seeing him put into such a dangerous situation. I'm pretty sure he knew it was the only way, but he was acting like any concerned parent would there. Goku considers Gohan as more of a colleague than a son, after all.

I think the problem here is that we're judging the characters based on what we know and not what they know.

Favorite design for a villain: Buutenks

@whoever suggested it: Saiyan arc is very clearly a different arc from the Frieza arc. One happened on Earth, had a different cast of villains and big bad, different objectives etc. Android Arc through Cell Arc is just one lengthy arc.

edited 4th Feb '14 5:45:50 PM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."

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